How I Survived Being Silenced – and unhealthy addiction to TV with indie boss Faraz Osman.
This episode, Kimberly is talking to indie boss Faraz Osman about his total failure to separate work from home life, and the identity crisis that followed his experience in a senior role where a fresh, 'other' voice was needed, but not listened to. Other topics include dating a supermodel, dank scout huts and overcoming a dog phobia for filming.
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Episode guest info:
Faraz Osman - Co-Founder & Head of Creative Gold Wala, making factual entertainment formats and world class kids' content.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/farazosman/
https://www.goldwala.com/home
The Imposter Club is brought to you by talented people, the specialist executive search and TV production, staffing company run by content makers.
Speaker:For content makers.
Speaker:Welcome to The Imposter Club, a podcast for people working in TV to admit that we are all just winging it.
Speaker:I'm Kimberly Godbolt, director turned Talent Company founder and I glean secrets from influential figures in the creative industries every day.
Speaker:spoiler alert, more successful people than you'd ever realize, still feel like a fraud, but you don't get to hear their stories.
Speaker:That changes right here in this podcast.
Speaker:It's my mission to discover how you can carve out an award-winning career in the company of self-doubt by asking respected senior people to share
Speaker:Come on in to the Imposter club
Speaker:I love the fact called me up and you said, I'm launching a podcast about imposters.
Speaker:Great.
Speaker:So that's how Kimberly sees me.
Speaker:club,
Speaker:this episode I'm chatting to Faraz Osman.
Speaker:MD and head of creative at the award-winning independent production company.
Speaker:Gold Wala.
Speaker:Faraz and I go way back to the days of fumbling around for allies when we were researchers together.
Speaker:And I've always found him contagiously passionate about this industry.
Speaker:But I also know he's had some tough times navigating it too.
Speaker:I've watched him climb the ranks through Blue Peter and this morning.
Speaker:And land huge roles like editor of education at channel four.
Speaker:Recently becoming chair of the BAFTA children's committee to.
Speaker:So I wanted to find out his, take on those twists and turns that influenced him to launch his own Indie.
Speaker:Enjoy listening in on our conversation.
Speaker:Faraz,
Speaker:The
Speaker:I've got this hunch that everyone in the creative industry has imposter syndrome, even though they probably don't talk about it.
Speaker:That feeling that despite your successes, that you are a, a fraud at any moment now someone's gonna find you out.
Speaker:I mean, is that, is that a fair assumption
Speaker:I don't think you're alone, but I, I don't necessarily agree.
Speaker:I think that the, the problem is, is that this is an industry that is not a meritocracy.
Speaker:A lot of it is to do with access.
Speaker:A lot of it is to do with who, you know, what, you know, et cetera.
Speaker:There's a lot of 'nepo babies' as they now, as they're now known going around and, and there are some people that genuinely believe though they deserve to be the head of some public
Speaker:but there are people in that are in a different club.
Speaker:That's not the imposter club, but the entitled club, should we call them that, that definitely exists as well.
Speaker:Um, But what I want to do is drill down into your career.
Speaker:And those challenging moments, because I think it's how we handle the bumps in the road that shapes our character and the future paths that we take.
Speaker:And I wonder whether it's all fed into you, setting up Gold Wala.
Speaker:So
Speaker:been.
Speaker:So
Speaker:first off, though, I wanted to do something kind of fun.
Speaker:That sounds like the rest of this podcast isn't gonna be fun.
Speaker:What, let's do a fun bit now and then, like the really serious terrifying bit later is, is that what you're getting
Speaker:we we're gonna have a laugh and then I'm gonna go right in there with some serious stuff.
Speaker:How would you describe yourself to someone?
Speaker:describe to at a dinner party if they said, oh, hi.
Speaker:Hi, hey Faraz, what is it you do again?
Speaker:Oh, that's, that's a great question.
Speaker:Depends who's sitting around a dinner table, I guess.
Speaker:That's interesting in itself.
Speaker:Why?
Speaker:Why?
Speaker:Why does it
Speaker:depend?
Speaker:As a British Asian who went to an pretty much predominantly, if not all white school and is now working in an industry where there is significant lack of
Speaker:I can, I can go from being at a dinner table with my parents and my family and it would be a very different conversation with different food and a
Speaker:And, and that's kind of, that's part of the game.
Speaker:That kind of code shifting between your different identities is what I've grown up with just as a British Asian living in a white world.
Speaker:But, but also, you know, when you get through to this industry, you almost have to find new levels.
Speaker:And it's not exclusive to me.
Speaker:Look, everyone has a work persona, a social persona, and a personal persona.
Speaker:But I, I do think certain communities have it amplified.
Speaker:And that is a really long and not useful answer to your fun question, which was how would I describe myself as a dinner party?
Speaker:Well, look, I'm a, I'm a TV producer that loves tv.
Speaker:And yeah, that's kind of it really.
Speaker:yeah.
Speaker:I like to have fun.
Speaker:I think, I think TV should be fun and I still think TV should be fun.
Speaker:That's why I got into it.
Speaker:And I want people to feel like we are having fun in this industry,
Speaker:did you know many people in TV when you set out working in this industry?
Speaker:No, and I, and actually that was part of the conscious decision about why I wanted to do it.
Speaker:I don't wanna overlay this point, but it is a reality and I guess if we're gonna talk about imposter syndrome, a lot of it is to do with personal identity.
Speaker:But within the, within the British Asian community, you know, there are two things.
Speaker:One, there is kind of certain jobs that are seen as worthy and professional and valuable.
Speaker:And then there is a kind of sense of.
Speaker:, well, you know, we says we know somebody that's in the industry and then they can help you kind of get further and further.
Speaker:And, and I, you know, probably with a bit of my middle child syndrome rebelled against that quite a lot.
Speaker:I wanted to do something that no one else was doing.
Speaker:S mainly so I couldn't be benchmarked against other members of my family and other members of my community, cuz that happens a lot like, you know, just in our culture.
Speaker:And and, and everyone wants their children to do well and, and get out of the structures that have kept them either poorer or marginalized.
Speaker:And, a lot of that is to do with wealth and success.
Speaker:And I think success in the creative industry is not necessarily the same as success in other professional industries.
Speaker:So you said then that actually part of the reason you really wanted to get into TV was because you didn't know anybody in TV and it was almost not the norm for someone from your community.
Speaker:What was your first role in, in tele
Speaker:I ended up going to university.
Speaker:. I actually studied media and television,
Speaker:Did some work experience at a radio production company and ended up working and this, and this was kind of like my first taste of of.
Speaker:Kind of doing something that had, I guess, national or even global impact.
Speaker:So I was working for a radio production company who made a lot of shows for radio one and commercial radio stations and, and then internationally as well.
Speaker:And like with the like world's biggest DJs that I really respected and like kind of read about in magazines.
Speaker:And then suddenly I was in a room in a studio with them and I was like, what is going on?
Speaker:This is crazy.
Speaker:And just kind of ridiculously exciting.
Speaker:And I was also, you know, obviously caught up in the whole, I'm in London, this is what's going on now.
Speaker:And any, this was kind of pre-Facebook time, so it was basically I would go to university and then come back home to my sleepy town and be able to talk
Speaker:And, and that was, you know, honestly was a bit of a drug.
Speaker:And then I ended up hilariously seeing a job advertise, this is gonna show my age, but I saw a job ad in the Guardian Media newspaper for a researcher at the Asian Programs Unit up in, in Birmingham.
Speaker:And I literally went, I'm and I can make telly.
Speaker:Probably I should apply for that.
Speaker:And I just applied and.
Speaker:I, you know, in hindsight, I was, I'm not gonna lie, was probably quite jammy getting that job.
Speaker:And it was, it was based on my own arrogance of going, I reckon I could do that.
Speaker:And not doubting myself at that stage when I probably should have, frankly.
Speaker:I went up there, did the interview, and, and the next thing I know, I was kind of packing my car, driving up the M 40 and, and starting a job as a researcher at the bbc, which was, you know, I
Speaker:Didn't know anybody at work in television.
Speaker:My university degree didn't really set me up for the realities of working in this world.
Speaker:Set me up for understanding the theoretical nature of the world, but I certainly was completely oblivious to how this industry actually operates.
Speaker:well, that's gotta be a good thing though, because it sounds like it didn't even enter your mind to be concerned about whether or not you'd be able to do it.
Speaker:You kind of backed yourself, you.
Speaker:I can do that.
Speaker:And then you went and did it.
Speaker:So there were no, there were no surprises there for you cuz you sort of walked in confidently and thought, I, I I'm just gonna smash this.
Speaker:when you're applying for work, you are saying that you can do something, but you're also looking for validation from whoever's interviewing you and whoever's
Speaker:So as soon as I got the role, I was a bit like, okay, cool.
Speaker:So not only do I think I can do it, but other people think I can do it as well.
Speaker:And, and particularly when you are very early in your career, you kind of go, okay, well I guess this is the place for me, then I've kind of figured it out.
Speaker:. What was quite evident quite quickly when I, when I joined that job is that, you know, I was the only Asian person in an all white school, But suddenly I was actually the
Speaker:So I almost like wasn't Asian enough.
Speaker:I kind of went from being not white enough in that world to being not Asian enough in this world.
Speaker:And you know, a lot of people spoke their mother tongue or they, you know, they were, were, were more culturally aware of their own heritage and their own background and maybe kind of consumed
Speaker:Then, then I was ever connected to.
Speaker:And, and that kind of gave me a, a kind of almost an identity crisis in the opposite direction.
Speaker:And and just kind of constantly being aware of both my perspective, negative and positive.
Speaker:Was something that I kind of quickly recognized that I either had to embrace or it would probably lead me down a quite a dark hole quite quickly.
Speaker:So it was, it was weird.
Speaker:And there were times where it was very weird.
Speaker:Like I didn't, I didn't have any Asian friends at school, right?
Speaker:I didn't have any, I've had very few Asian friends at university, and then suddenly I'm in a world where everybody I'm looking at looks like me and are working in my industry
Speaker:and did I make some mistakes , when I was working there?
Speaker:I can tell you that for free.
Speaker:The code shifting thing is interesting, isn't it?
Speaker:Did you notice yourself code switching at that point, or have there been other examples where you've actually changed your approach or personality to fit in or to mask something about you?
Speaker:, I just thought it was life., so everyone experiences it in some ways, but the extremities of how those, from.
Speaker:Kind of marginalized communities or other communities experience it is, is definitely evident.
Speaker:And I have, I have felt it and have leaned into it and, and have also tried to run for the hills.
Speaker:And you just get more, I'd like to think that I'm better at it.
Speaker:And I do think it's a power.
Speaker:I don't, I don't look, see it as a negative thing.
Speaker:I, I think it's a a skill that I have that I can walk into a room, pick up the vibe, and very quickly, you know, try to ingra shape.
Speaker:And I think that that is actually good for program making and tele that you have to connect and move into worlds quite quickly.
Speaker:And,
Speaker:I used to call it being chameleon, right?
Speaker:Make like getting a rapport with contributors with either the people you're working with or the people you're filming, to make them feel comfortable to open up to you.
Speaker:And usually I'd have no, I wouldn't have anything in common with this person I was filming, but I'd find something that we'd laugh about
Speaker:But there must be points where it's, it's actually unhealthy the amount you code shift or be a chameleon in your own career.
Speaker:Like there are people who, you know, I know from experience are in teams feeling really alone, who are acting almost a completely different persona the whole time.
Speaker:And I mean, that that is pretty exhausting.
Speaker:I, I do think that there's a subtle difference between being a chameleon and, and code shifting, right?
Speaker:I, I think being a chameleon is, is kind of hiding your identity.
Speaker:It's actually masking who you really are to not get noticed.
Speaker:You know, it's camouflage, right?
Speaker:That's what chameleons do.
Speaker:Whereas I think with code shifting it is, it is subtlely different because.
Speaker:There is no suggestion that you are not Asian.
Speaker:There is no suggestion that like you are not from London or the Southeast.
Speaker:There's no suggestion that you're not from a particular class or you have a particular gender or, or whatever it might be.
Speaker:It's just that you are turning up some parts of your identity and your personality.
Speaker:That may make you feel more comfortable in certain environments, and you are turning down the others to feel less threatening in certain
Speaker:You know, I, I can't hide my ethnicity.
Speaker:It's literally on my skin.
Speaker:You know, I can't hide my gender.
Speaker:It's literally on my skin.
Speaker:I can't hide my, my accent.
Speaker:It's literally coming outta my mouth.
Speaker:You know, we, we start mocking people.
Speaker:Like, I always remember that video of Josh Stone who kind of, I think she turned up at a, an award ceremony once.
Speaker:We had a very American accent.
Speaker:And you're a bit like, love what you're doing.
Speaker:Don't, don't do that.
Speaker:It like, we know what you're trying to do and it's not working.
Speaker:And I dunno if anybody's seen the Elizabeth Holmes documentary, but just fascinating.
Speaker:Sorry.
Speaker:Well, there's a drama series on, on Disney Plus now I should check it out.
Speaker:It's called The Dropout and it's brilliant.
Speaker:And it's a really, really great, a great story about a woman trying to code shift or be a chameleon so hard that she kind of hood winks
Speaker:Tinder, swindler as well,
Speaker:Yeah, and exactly Tim and all, all of those sort of things.
Speaker:It's like, you know, there are people that are so charismatic that they're able to kind of be someone they're not.
Speaker:And , that is dangerous, obviously.
Speaker:And, and that is being manipulative and.
Speaker:And, and I don't think that's what code switching is, but Ramadan is coming up, right?
Speaker:So I start fasting and I think when you and I first met, I probably was fasting when I, when we were working together, and no one really knows what to do.
Speaker:They're a bit like, oh my God, your fa it's a bit like, oh, I better hide my, like, it's the worst.
Speaker:Trust me.
Speaker:Now the worst thing in the world you can do is kind of eat underneath your desk because you are worried that the person opposite you is fasting.
Speaker:It makes them feel like a tit, it makes you feel like a tit, it makes everyone feel like this situation is causing more problems and actually
Speaker:Faith and et cetera.
Speaker:And they're not asking you to do anything differently.
Speaker:If somebody comes up to me and I'm fasting and asks me questions about it, , I'll happily answer them.
Speaker:, it's just part of my identity.
Speaker:In the same way that somebody came up to you and asked you about what it's like being a mother.
Speaker:You'll happily talk to 'em about your kids and the fact you didn't get much sleep last night, and they learnt something new and amazing at school, et cetera.
Speaker:This whole whole idea of you going to work and not allowed to talk about being a mother is just frankly wrong.
Speaker:And, and that is kind of what I mean.
Speaker:It's like, it's my identity.
Speaker:I'm bringing it, but I'm not amplifying it.
Speaker:If I went into work and talked about nothing other than the fact that I was fasting, I would annoy a lot of people and probably annoy myself as well.
Speaker:This is The Imposter Club Coming up,
Speaker:I'm never gonna be able to convince these people that I'm part of their club.
Speaker:That's why I might as well just hand in my membership card , and get out of here.
Speaker:Welcome back to the imposter club I'm chatting to boss of Gold Wala Faraz
Speaker:Osman about the complications of bringing your whole self to work.
Speaker:Coming out the Asian unit and into your sort of early career?
Speaker:Did you find yourself, , winging it, putting on different personality to, get work, to fit in that way?
Speaker:I feel
Speaker:like I'm gonna have to tell this story.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:I've never had pets.
Speaker:And my mom doesn't like animals.
Speaker:So as a result, being quite young, I was always wary of them cuz she was wary of them.
Speaker:And we went to this house where these relatives were, and they had two quite big dogs.
Speaker:I must have been four or five at the time.
Speaker:And these dogs got overexcited and they ran and they were jumping up on me and like, you know, my mum was looking scared and my relatives were
Speaker:I wouldn't gonna say it wasn't a phobia, but it was like I didn't like dogs.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:I was certainly not comfortable around them.
Speaker:And then I spent a period of time when I was out work as a researcher and I was applying for every job that came along.
Speaker:And there was a job on a show which was basically super nanny for dogs.
Speaker:I just wrote an application and then had an interview for it and basically banged on about how much I love dogs and you know, they're a thing that
Speaker:So I love looking after my mates dogs this like all complete bullshit.
Speaker:I remember thinking while I was having the chat, my God, if I get this job, This could be trouble because like I could end up filming a dog and like passing out while I'm doing it.
Speaker:I got the job and then very quickly had to get used to the idea that I was gonna be around a, around dogs that, and actually dogs that were naughty as well.
Speaker:Dogs that, you know, and, and almost in some cases dangerous.
Speaker:And I was a bit like, we better suck it up, buck up because this is now your job.
Speaker:it's an
Speaker:interesting subject though.
Speaker:Like how, when does winging it turn into blagging it in the, in, in the wrong way?
Speaker:Like, like what's the line between winging it, knowing that you will just crack on with it and you will make it work, versus actually
Speaker:well, when I look, when, when I was earlier in, in my career, like being a blagger was seen as a really positive thing.
Speaker:Like there were TV shows about it.
Speaker:There were like balls of steel and you know, there were shows about kind of getting away with stuff based on your own charisma and your own identity, that that was seen as like a, like an asset.
Speaker:So, you know, being a, being a blagger, kind of getting yourself on the guest list, kind of getting yourself invited to places you weren't meant to be invited to or like, you know, et cetera.
Speaker:Was always seen as a really positive thing particularly if you were kind of trying to, you know, I guess do that code shifting thing and and,
Speaker:And, and that is absolutely true for when you're starting out in an industry, right?
Speaker:There's no, and, and particularly for us who grew up in a bit of a pre, or at least a pre web 2.0 stage, where we weren't able to kind of like make films
Speaker:You, the only way that people would know about you is by what you would tell them, and that is it, right?
Speaker:, at that time you did actually have to, be a bit of an imposter but, but I think the, the truth is, is that once you get into a particular role, like an interview is an hour long.
Speaker:A job is at least three months long even in this industry.
Speaker:And, and so once you get the job, people figure out who you are quite quickly, and a good manager and a, and a and a good team leader will be able to kind
Speaker:But like, whenever I'm doing interviews with people now, one of the questions I always try to ask people is, what is it that you don't like doing?
Speaker:Because I think if you can get that outta people and say, look, this isn't gonna, this isn't gonna preclude you from the job, but if you can tell me what you don't like doing,
Speaker:And once you recognize that, actually in most workplaces, you are a team member, it's very rare that you are an individual and you're just doing that job in isolation.
Speaker:You can say, I will be brilliant at this.
Speaker:This isn't me.
Speaker:So if you, if I can fill this gap for you, but like you've got somebody else to fill this gap, then you're gonna have a really great team.
Speaker:There's no point in having a couple of people that are exactly the same.
Speaker:And, and this whole issue of people hiring people like themselves is in itself flawed because like, well, if you're hiring somebody that, that
Speaker:Value add in what you're getting.
Speaker:You should be looking for people that are filling gaps that aren't there.
Speaker:So a
Speaker:certain amount of blogging is okay then certainly in your earlier career.
Speaker:As long as you can deliver.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:I suppose that that's what we've just summed up there, sort of embracing the imposter at that point, thinking, I don't really know what I'm doing, but I'm gonna go for it is all right.
Speaker:If you are kind of
Speaker:imposing yourself into a world that actually you don't really care about, that's what's dangerous, right?
Speaker:If you go into a space and you kind of.
Speaker:Oh, I can perform heart surgery and actually you are not really bothered about whether or not the person on the table lives or dies.
Speaker:Then, then now those two things multiply to become the worst case scenario.
Speaker:But if you really wanna train to become a doctor and at the time you don't know if you can do it or not, then you should try and train to become a doctor.
Speaker:And if you can't do it at the end of it, that's kind of okay.
Speaker:But like, I think everyone has to start out as an imposter.
Speaker:Not everyone can start in a place where they know everything all the time.
Speaker:I think the difference for us in the creative industry is that everything that we do is really, really subjective, right?
Speaker:I've seen films that I think are terrible.
Speaker:that have gone on to, you know, become incredibly successful.
Speaker:And I'm like, how did this stuff get away?
Speaker:How did this stuff happen?
Speaker:. It is a, a lot of it is luck.
Speaker:A lot of it is nepotism.
Speaker:And, and, and obviously some of it is your skills and experience, and it is kind of putting that all into a cauldron and hoping that the magic Pot comes out of it in some way.
Speaker:back to your career progression.
Speaker:You left the Asian unit.
Speaker:Were finding your way in producer director roles, using the odd bit of blagging to work on formats.
Speaker:Some dog-related.
Speaker:Um, tell me about one of your biggest breaks into a senior role.
Speaker:Yeah, so I got a, role.
Speaker:That was a surprise for everyone, to be honest, including me, where I got tapped on the shoulder to do, to do a role.
Speaker:And Somebody else thought that I could do this job.
Speaker:And I didn't know a huge amount about it, but I was a bit like, yeah, I guess I could do that job.
Speaker:Everything that's on the job description is things that I'm interested in, so I think I can do the job.
Speaker:And then I walked into a job where I was a bit like, whoa, like what is going on here?
Speaker:And I dunno, the people, and I dunno how this world works, and I didn't have any mentors in that space.
Speaker:And there was a lot of change very quickly when I was there.
Speaker:And it was, it was quite a negative experience.
Speaker:As a result, it was a positive experience in a sense that like, I absolutely wouldn't, wouldn't be where I am now.
Speaker:Had it not been for me getting that role and being able to add it to what was then a cv, what is now a LinkedIn profile.
Speaker:But it, but it wasn't a pleasant experience in any
Speaker:Why not?
Speaker:What?
Speaker:What happened?
Speaker:I
Speaker:was in a world where everyone else knew each other, but I didn't know anyone.
Speaker:And I was put into that world because of my otherness.
Speaker:I was put into that world because actually it needed more people like me to have a voice.
Speaker:But I would argue that putting somebody in that world, because you recognize their voice is valuable, but they're not allowing them to speak is utterly pointless.
Speaker:And that's absolutely what happened in my situation.
Speaker:Now, in addition to that, I absolutely didn't have a lot of the skills and experiences that were required to execute that job in the best way.
Speaker:But my view is, is that like, well, . Let's work together to figure out where the gaps are in my experience and I'm, I was, and I said this vocally, I was willing to go out there and fill the
Speaker:And it got to a point where I was a little bit like, I'm never gonna be able to convince these people that I'm part of their club.
Speaker:That's why I might as well just hand in my membership card at a desk and, and get out of here.
Speaker:It was a very difficult part of my career and.
Speaker:. Even though it was a fairly high profile job at a fairly high profile place, I didn't have a voice in that world and wasn't able to do anything.
Speaker:And I left and, and was suddenly of full of rage and frustration and you know, had a massive identity crisis and all of these things happened at the same time.
Speaker:I managed to create myself a job.
Speaker:Where I was a bit like, well, I'm gonna try and do this on my own,
Speaker:and, and if it doesn't work, then I know it doesn't work because of me, not because of the systems and structures around me.
Speaker:I have a real problem with blaming other people for my own failures.
Speaker:I think that that's not a healthy thing to do.
Speaker:But I kind of go too far in the other direction where I put myself in situations and don't ask for help often enough.
Speaker:For us, did you, did you leave the industry after that terrible experience?
Speaker:I didn't le I didn't leave the industry because I managed to somehow against the odds I would argue, find a company who were fledgling, but absolutely needed a bit of help
Speaker:And we grew.
Speaker:hard and fast and quite significantly.
Speaker:And, and, but then again, I moved into a company where like I was passionate about the work they were doing, but I wasn't part of their club, if that made sense.
Speaker:So I suddenly was in another club where I was a bit like, right, okay, well I've signed up for memberships at this place now I better literally change my brogues for trainers , that's
Speaker:But I then recognized after being there for a little while.
Speaker:That that, that we were trying to move the company that we had joined.
Speaker:So this is me and my now business partner.
Speaker:We were trying to move that company in a way that the original founder didn't feel like it was his vision anymore.
Speaker:So then I left and have, have ended up doing what I'm doing now, which is kind of running my own thing.
Speaker:We've got a website.
Speaker:Head to the imposter club.com.
Speaker:Where you can contact the show and sign up to receive our emails.
Speaker:As we build a warm community of creative imposters for world domination.
Speaker:Why don't get FOMO and head to the imposter club.com after this app.
Speaker:So let's go back there a sec, cuz there were three steps there.
Speaker:One is really terrible personal experience at a company where you felt excluded and not listened to.
Speaker:You left that.
Speaker:Picked yourself up, found something in the interim and actually had the confidence to say, there I can see where this company should be going and it's not going there, so I wanna do something myself.
Speaker:Cut to set up with person that you met at that company.
Speaker:I mean, that's quite a pickup from somewhere where you've explained yourself as having a real career and personal low at that first company.
Speaker:How, how have you done
Speaker:how have , honestly, Kimberly, I'll tell you why I, I think I've done it is because I'm so nerdy about this industry.
Speaker:I care about it so much and have, have dedicated, like almost all of my adult life to this world
Speaker:and you just don't wanna throw it away because it is a, you know, you know, I don't drink, I don't take drugs.
Speaker:, I hate the idea of being addicted to something.
Speaker:But I, I probably am addicted to this industry.
Speaker:Almost in a, in an unhealthy way.
Speaker:Every so often I thought, you know what?
Speaker:This just isn't worth it.
Speaker:I've had this analogy and it's, it's with like a lot of things that I've done where if I feel like sometimes it's like that you're dating a supermodel, right?
Speaker:So you kind of like, hear me out So it feels like you're dating a supermodel.
Speaker:So you're a bit like you go on this date with the supermodel and you're a bit like you go out there and everybody around you will be like, oh my God, you are dating.
Speaker:Who?
Speaker:Oh my God, that's amazing.
Speaker:I mean, God, how did you pull her?
Speaker:That's incredible.
Speaker:What's going on?
Speaker:And you kind of like, yeah, look at me.
Speaker:I'm really, really cool.
Speaker:And then you are kind of like, Home alone with her.
Speaker:And every so often you're a bit like, are you, are you dating anybody else?
Speaker:And they're a bit like, well, why does it matter?
Speaker:I'm dating you.
Speaker:And you kind of go, yeah, but like, is this a thing?
Speaker:Like, are we, are we like, are we going somewhere?
Speaker:Are we gonna get engaged?
Speaker:You're a bit like, yeah, yeah, you're right.
Speaker:Why am I trying to spoil it?
Speaker:And then you go, no, no, no, no, but I wanna think about my future and I wanna think about like whether or not this is real or not and what's going on.
Speaker:And that sometimes is what this industry feels like.
Speaker:It feels like on the outside it looks glamorous and cool and you're doing amazing things and everyone's a bit like, oh my God, you are have having the time of your life.
Speaker:But actually you kind of sometimes look at it and kind of go, do I want to do this for the rest of my, my life?
Speaker:And is this industry or this person or this supermodel gonna get bored of.
Speaker:And literally, I'm gonna wake up one day and go open the paper and they're dating somebody else.
Speaker:And I'm like, oh, right, I guess it's over.
Speaker:And, and that sometimes is how working in this world feels like, and it's, you know, you run a recruitment agency, but you run a recruitment agency in a world that you know and understand.
Speaker:You've probably had the same conversations about like, well, maybe we could do a recruitment agency for tech.
Speaker:The rates in tech are much higher, or are much higher.
Speaker:Why are we not doing that?
Speaker:Do you know what?
Speaker:You're totally right.
Speaker:For me as well.
Speaker:I mean, I, I bloody.
Speaker:tv.
Speaker:We've often thought about taking on other, other types of roles or going into different territory exactly as you've just said.
Speaker:But I would be, I would feel like an imposter because I love the fact that we can say, you know, we know the roles that you want us to fill
Speaker:And actually, if I had some sort of tech job with a title with acronyms, I didn't know in a CV I'd feel like such a bullshitter.
Speaker:I couldn't, I couldn't do it.
Speaker:Although I know I could, I wouldn't wanna be that person, I
Speaker:wouldn't wanna be that person.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And, and, and also like all, a lot of the roles that you're recruiting for, you haven't done.
Speaker:No, but it feels like I've done them because I know
Speaker:it's, sorry.
Speaker:You feel like, you you feel like, you know, and the reason is, and the reason is because you know the people.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:You know people that have done those jobs and you know people and you feel like you're part of world in the community and you want it to love you and you want to love it.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And that is what TV does to you.
Speaker:, I've been thinking about this a lot, how I don't have any hobbies, right?
Speaker:I don't have any hobbies.
Speaker:I like playing video games.
Speaker:I wouldn't call it a hobby.
Speaker:I like making food.
Speaker:I wouldn't call it a hobby.
Speaker:And I think part of the reason for that is that as when you're work in creative industries and in particular when you work in tele, every hobby feels like it should have to be work, right?
Speaker:If you suddenly start going, oh, I, if I start playing video games to an elite level, everyone's gonna be like, well, why don't you like pitch an idea about doing eSports?
Speaker:And I'm like, no.
Speaker:I just, like, if I start getting like really good at baking, they're a bit like, well, you gonna come up with the next, next great British Bake off?
Speaker:And I'm like,
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's like TV leeches into every element of your life.
Speaker:A hundred percent and in a, in a way that it doesn't anywhere else, right?
Speaker:And comes back to this idea of like imposter syndrome and being a cos switcher because you, you know, in normal jobs, inverted commas, right?
Speaker:You do your, you train for your job, you do your job, you go home and you watch telly, right?
Speaker:That's what normal people do in normal jobs, right?
Speaker:Like my, my sister-in-law, she's an optician, right?
Speaker:She doesn't come home and go, I'm gonna do on podcast about being an optician and like, start, like watching TV and like watching the
Speaker:It doesn't, it just doesn't happen
Speaker:what's our switch off?
Speaker:You need to find a switch off for us.
Speaker:I, I do silly things at the weekend to switch off.
Speaker:I grew up in an era where it was a bit like either you live to work or you work to live, right?
Speaker:And if you work to live, that was seen as a negative thing.
Speaker:But if you live to work, that was like, you've won the lottery.
Speaker:But actually, I'm not entirely sure if that is completely true anymore.
Speaker:Have you lived to work and then you don't have any work because industry is so fickle and you suddenly are unemployed for a couple of months and then you start freaking out.
Speaker:It literally, ingrains into every part of your life and every part of your identity and your psychology, and it's why we have so many mental health issues in this industry.
Speaker:It's why we have so much toxicity in this industry , in pretty big every single house in the country, we point the furniture at the box that we represent, right?
Speaker:And so every time you walk into a room, at any your mate's house, your family's house, your own house, it's just this big bl black rectangle.
Speaker:It keeps getting bigger and bigger every year that you kind of go.
Speaker:, that's part of my identity.
Speaker:It's not just a social thing.
Speaker:It's not just a hobby.
Speaker:It's not just a recreational thing.
Speaker:It's literally my identity that's hung on that wall, and I've got to make it better.
Speaker:It's my role in this world to make the stuff that appears on that screen better than the other people that are making it.
Speaker:And, and that is, you know, something that I love doing because when you get it right, it is amazing.
Speaker:Like, it's just incredible.
Speaker:Like, I'm making kids TV at the moment and, you know, my and I've got a daughter who is the, at the age of the show that we're making stuff for.
Speaker:If you are telling me that you have a better experience than having your child sitting next to you watching you make a show that they're gonna watch and then
Speaker:Like it is the most amazing thing in the world, but like you've said, you've said TV gets into your bloodstream and represents every part of your life.
Speaker:I'm inspired by that, but also terrified that you can't separate yourself
Speaker:from it.
Speaker:It's terrifying.
Speaker:But it's also the weirdest thing about this job that, like, unlike other worlds where you are a function, you know, you are the world of television in particular, you are doing
Speaker:You know, it's, it's, it's part of their enjoyable experience and there's, there's a massive responsibility that comes with that.
Speaker:So going back to running your own company then?
Speaker:Cuz I, I reckon that there will be people, you know, we could, well have an imposter listening who has had a bad experience, who's then thinking, actually maybe I could go out on my own.
Speaker:Maybe I could do this myself.
Speaker:Make my own voice heard.
Speaker:How, how are things,
Speaker:have you felt better setting up a company and being able to be in control of your own destiny and make your own output?
Speaker:I've been
Speaker:quite real about this, that one of the key reasons and motivations for me setting up a company is because nobody else would gimme a job.
Speaker:And I'm not saying this, that in a kind of old woe is me sort of way, I thought about it a lot and I went, I reckon that getting a commission.
Speaker:is just as hard as getting a job, particularly at the level that I'm at now, right?
Speaker:So I can spend my time waiting for somebody else to get a commission and then me to get a call about that commission, so I've got a job, or I could
Speaker:So the experiences that I am having, I check myself sometimes and I get really upset and really frustrated when a particular idea falls through
Speaker:So like, somebody doesn't buy into it in the same way I take it really personally.
Speaker:It's a, it's a floor in my, character.
Speaker:Although I say that I, I don't understand how you can't take it personally.
Speaker:If you believe in your
Speaker:If you really care
Speaker:says your ideas aren't good enough, then of course you're gonna take it personally.
Speaker:We set up this company because I think that the experiences that I've had have been very negative.
Speaker:And we, me and Jess wanna build a company that looks after people as much as we can while also trying to make really good content.
Speaker:. Sometimes for some reason, those two things are odds of each other.
Speaker:We do, what we can to make sure it's not just about us, it's about the people that want to work with us.
Speaker:Cuz we think it's a privilege that strong creative organized, sensible, intelligent, fun.
Speaker:People want to work with us and, and we should, respect that privilege.
Speaker:What does being a, a good boss look like to you?
Speaker:I know it's a bit of a cliche, but I do think you need to listen to people.
Speaker:And that goes back to my experience of not being listened to.
Speaker:Like what's the point in like hiring people if you're not gonna listen to them?
Speaker:We don't have to agree with them.
Speaker:You don't even have to action what they say, but you have to acknowledge them and you have to make them feel like they're heard because otherwise they have a bad
Speaker:I've always been a massive fan of trying to like, build a team around you that's better than you to do all the stuff that they're good at to allow you to, I
Speaker:. You, you are right.
Speaker:But you also need to make sure those people you're hiring see value in you as well.
Speaker:, you kind of go, wow, working with Kimberly, she's amazing on what she does, right?
Speaker:You don't want a situation where they're a bit like working with Kimberly's really interesting because she's not very good at anything
Speaker:That's obviously not the case.
Speaker:People are inspired to work with you and I hope are inspired to work with me because they recognize that we are good at putting teams together or convincing
Speaker:And, and then therefore they, , Fight for you.
Speaker:They, they want to put on your team shirt and kind of represent you as a company.
Speaker:Comes all the way background to what, you know, we start this conversation about if people think that you are an imposter, if people think that, that you are kind of like
Speaker:, tell me where you are at with Gold Waller.
Speaker:Because we are a company led by someone like me that is of colour and, you know, we are trying to do things a little bit differently and we understand certain worlds, et cetera.
Speaker:I do think a lot of commissioners and a lot of people kind of come to us as the outsiders, as the wild card because they kind of go, well, we could just go to the same
Speaker:Could they come back to us as something different?
Speaker:There is a pressure attached to that that we always feel like we have to come back with something that is like a little bit left of center, a little bit quirky, a little bit weird.
Speaker:And, the amount of times I've had feedback where it's a bit like your idea was the most creative in the room, but we're not gonna hire you because
Speaker:And I'm a bit like, right, okay.
Speaker:And then you try to go in the other direction and they're a bit like, we didn't really expect these sort of ideas from you.
Speaker:Why have you talked to us about this?
Speaker:And I'm a bit like, right, okay.
Speaker:It's part of the game, but it's also kind of something that I've had to deal with as an individual.
Speaker:So, so that's kind of the challenge with it.
Speaker:But there are times when it's an advantage and there are times when it's clearly a frustrating disadvantage cuz you go into rooms and
Speaker:Like, I know why I'm here.
Speaker:I'm here because it helps appease other people's conscience and it helps other people feel Comfortable about what about what they're doing.
Speaker:But then there have been times when I've taken it too far and I've said out that I've like, you know, there'll be times when I've like got a beam up on it
Speaker:Like, we, you are here cuz we actually value your opinion and we think you know what you're talking about.
Speaker:And I have to kind of go, oh, right, okay, fine, fair enough.
Speaker:But it does sap your energy
Speaker:It does sound like your overall feeling now on imposter syndrome is to to embrace your difference and kind of lean into that in the right context.
Speaker:Would that be
Speaker:fair?
Speaker:Oh, I, think it's even further than that., I just cannot understand how we as a, as an industry and as a and even as a society can exist without having that level of difference.
Speaker:If we are all homogenous and we all think the same way, then I kind of like, what's the point?
Speaker:This is a advice whenever new entrant into this industry, come to me and say, you know, what are you looking for?
Speaker:What is it that you do?
Speaker:I'm always saying that, look, you know, we are creative collaborators.
Speaker:You have to tell me what it is that you want to do and how I can help.
Speaker:And I have to tell you what it is that I'm trying to do and how you can help me.
Speaker:It's never a one-way street.
Speaker:And, and that is the kind of key to this is that, I'm always looking for people that can come to me, , not with arrogance or entitlement or whatever it might be,
Speaker:I'd like to offer that to you in return.
Speaker:What can you offer me?
Speaker:That's like the most
Speaker:exciting thing about all of this.
Speaker:And that requires otherness.
Speaker:That's such a nice approach.
Speaker:it's an exchange of,
Speaker:you,
Speaker:know, talents.
Speaker:junior and how, how
Speaker:cool.
Speaker:is that?
Speaker:but you say it's nice and it's cool.
Speaker:I literally, I see it the other way.
Speaker:You are dumb if you don't think that way.
Speaker:This is, look, it's a humble brag, but I was introduced to Lil Simz.
Speaker:In my old company in shortage, she did one of her first music videos on a dirty old sofa that we had
Speaker:she's arguably one of the biggest pop stars in the UK right now.
Speaker:If you can be part of that story, that is the real joy of working in television and working in the creative industries that you've been there at the chrysalis
Speaker:and then you ride on their coattails and you're like, they, the reason they're successful is because of
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And you tell stories on a podcast about
Speaker:Lil Simz
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:okay.
Speaker:Last thing then.
Speaker:What would you tell the younger Faraz knowing what you know now?
Speaker:uh, Run um, uh, look, I, um, when you start in this industry, it feels like it's about making friends, right?
Speaker:It feels like everybody you work with can be your best mate because they're young and they're beautiful and they're doing creative stuff and they're like, you know, we're
Speaker:So it feels like these are gonna be your best friends for life.
Speaker:They're not gonna be your best friends for life.
Speaker:And actually, the key to it is building a family and not building a friendship group.
Speaker:You need people that will go far as, Kimberly shouldn't do that as a bit of a dickish move in the way that your, your cousin or your brother or your or your parents might do.
Speaker:You need people that will test you and frustrate you, but you really still respect them just because of who they are.
Speaker:You need people that will have your back and will, will kind of walk over hot coals for you.
Speaker:And most importantly, and it kind of comes back to our relationship, Kimberly, you know, we worked together as researchers very early on in our career.
Speaker:Our paths went in different direction and then we bumped into each other at the Edinburgh TV festival.
Speaker:and we're like, oh my God, you are doing amazing stuff.
Speaker:Oh my God, you are doing amazing stuff.
Speaker:We were excited to see each other.
Speaker:We were kind of backing each other up.
Speaker:We were championing what each other was doing
Speaker:and you know, we got back in touch and we're doing things like this now as a result.
Speaker:it was just like I was bumping you out of the way, the microwave to heat up my lunch.
Speaker:right.
Speaker:a final thought actually, I, I was thinking hard about this.
Speaker:We can't all be imposters can we?
Speaker:I genuinely don't think that everyone thinks they're an imposter.
Speaker:I think that there are those that are entitled that think they deserve to be here.
Speaker:And I think that you have to be an imposter to have the motivation to kind of go, well, I wanna break down this system I say this a lot about being an indie, right?
Speaker:We are the imposter indie because there is, it's a very established market, a very established world.
Speaker:There's lots of big indies within it.
Speaker:Like we are sometimes pitted against each other as smaller indies.
Speaker:And I'm like, I ain't playing that game.
Speaker:I will send you briefs, I will send you work if I don't think I can do it.
Speaker:And I think it's our, our opportunity both as individuals and as small companies to to back each other up
Speaker:Awesome.
Speaker:Thank you Faraz, for being part of the imposter club.
Speaker:I feel like I should get t-shirts.
Speaker:Should I get t-shirts?
Speaker:I feel like, because it's such a small club at the moment, it's like when I was at Cubs, so you've got like a really, danky, scout hut, in the middle, in the middle of nowhere.
Speaker:And then by the time you get to the end of series one, maybe you'll be
Speaker:buying property in East london.
Speaker:Oh, I didn't know about that.
Speaker:I love a dank scout, huh?
Speaker:I used to be a beaver leader.
Speaker:Did you know.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:We've gotta go and pick up children now.
Speaker:Probably looking at the time
Speaker:Come on imposters let's get everyone talking about this stuff more.
Speaker:Open up your WhatsApp groups and tell your production pals.
Speaker:They need to listen to the imposter club.
Speaker:Everyone loves the podcast recommend, and this is so relevant for them.
Speaker:So that kudos you'll get back is a free gift from me.
Speaker:See you next time.
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Speaker:In behind the screens roles with integrity and a human approach.