Shedding my armour - ex Commissioner and indie boss Fatima Salaria

PLAYOUT FINAL Fatima Final cut 160423

[00:00:00] Kimberly: The Imposter Club is brought to you by talented people, the specialist executive search and TV production, staffing company run by content makers. For content makers.

[00:00:12] Kimberly: Welcome to The Imposter Club, a podcast for people working in TV to admit that we are all just winging it. I'm Kimberly Godbolt, director turned Talent Company founder and I glean secrets from influential figures in the creative industries every day. spoiler alert, more successful people than you'd ever realize, still feel like a fraud, but you don't get to hear their stories. That changes right here in this podcast.

[00:00:44] Kimberly: It's my mission to discover how you can carve out an award-winning career in the company of self-doubt by asking respected senior people to share their stories of career fears and failures and what they learned from them.

[00:00:58] Kimberly: Come on in to the Imposter club

[00:01:02] Kimberly: this episode, I'm speaking to Fatima Solaria. And they, many of us associate with her commissioning roles at the BBC and channel four.

[00:01:11] Kimberly: She's also got a popular column in broadcast and his executive chair at Edinburgh TV festival. I've known Fatima for a little while and her direct and confident approach. Doesn't exactly scream. Imposter syndrome. But she readily accepted my invite to talk about it. So I was intrigued to find out what [00:01:30] role it's played in her career and why she's left her MD role. Making shows like the apprentice, planet sex and the rap game at production company naked.

[00:01:40] Kimberly: Trust me, there were some serious truths in here and you're really gonna want to stick around for her wise words at the end. Here's the episode.

[00:01:48] Kimberly: Welcome Fatima to the Imposter Club.

[00:01:50] Fatima: Thank you.

[00:01:51] Kimberly: So my mission here. Is to get as many people as possible into this imposter club from the world of TV, who've had successful careers who were enjoying successful careers. To admit. To everyone that actually a lot of the time we are having. A tough time of it. And we, we don't always have confidence in ourselves because I just think we so often see awards and nice ceremonies and, and actually you assume that those people have had it easy or they've got it together and they know exactly what they want.

[00:02:24] Kimberly: But I don't think that's right. So where do you stand on imposter syndrome? How do you feel about it?

[00:02:30] Fatima: I think that you're right about the fact that you have to put on a, a different skin sometimes, or you put different masks on or different costumes for what, whatever situation you find in telly. I think telly is incredibly judgmental. I think we are quite harsh critics of each other because if you think about what we do in Teli, we spend so much time critically analyzing our output.[00:03:00]

[00:03:00] Fatima: Um, so we spend a lot of time thinking about the best ideas. We're constantly told those ideas might not work, they might not be right. We spend a lot of time in edit suites telling people why their work isn't working and why it's not right. So I think sometimes we are very quick to judge, and I know that I'm incredibly guilty of that. Um, I think the thing that makes me sad the most is that when I come home, I don't get rid of that skin quick enough. So I'm incredibly judgmental with my family and I can even notice it in my voice. Sometimes I talk to them as if they're members of my team and I'm having a go at them when they're just kids who haven't made their beds or we don't have any food in.

[00:03:47] Fatima: And I use the way I am at work at times with them, and that makes me feel really sad sometimes on reflection. So I think you're right. I think that we all wear different bits of armor to help us get through an industry that is. Incredibly judgmental and critical of each other. And I think that's one of the reasons I've taken a bit of a break now, because I want to rediscover my passion and my love for, I, I want to just be a softer person.

[00:04:18] Fatima: And I think that, uh, I want, I want that bit of myself to go for a while. I know for myself that I do that and, and discovered that kindness again, that, [00:04:30] you know, I, I feel at times was kind of, I was losing a little bit of that in the pressure.

[00:04:36] Kimberly: Wow, that, that's really fascinating that you have identified that as well, that you've, throughout your career, you've sort of grown this skin or armor as you put it. And like you say, you know, a lot, a lot of working in TVs is sort of being chameleon, isn't it? Even with contributors, you know, when, when I was directing you'd, you know, you'd find something that was common ground.

[00:04:56] Kimberly: You would, , figure out how to get access, in a way that felt authentic and genuine at the time. But really you are wearing a different hat. But you, you recognized that in yourself when you went home. You know, , when you were at home and you were talking to your kids and going, God tidy bedroom, or why is there no food in the house or whatever it is that you've brought home from work? Did you know you were doing it

[00:05:16] Kimberly: at the

[00:05:16] Kimberly: time?

[00:05:17] Fatima: No, because I just was still being f. The producer or fima the commissioner, or fima, the md. I didn't realize it. And I think that one of the things, I've really tried hard to do is that when I put the key through the door, I've got to become mum and partner again rather than being all of those other things., it was really hard during Covid because when our homes and our works, the, the boundaries really blurred. , We were really fortunate, we had a little room at the bottom of the garden and, , for the first couple of weeks of Covid, I spent a lot of time in the house. And my kids and my husband said to me, do you know what those conversations that you are having with people where you are telling them you're having to cancel their [00:06:00] programs and.

[00:06:01] Fatima: Everything's being canceled, left, right, and center, and it's got an implication. The kids are finding that really difficult to hear because they're quite depressing. Do you mind going down into the bottom of the garden and we'll get a wifi connection view there and can you sit there, have those conversations because we actually don't like hearing them, um, because they're quite depressing and sad.

[00:06:21] Fatima: And I found that, of course, I did that. But as time went on, I found those lines between home life and work life, really hard to navigate. And I'd started my new job at Naked when I left Channel four. Um, I spent two weeks in the office and then I spent eight, nine months sitting here in my shed. And I found that really, really hard.

[00:06:40] Fatima: I was itching to get back into the office so that I could be that Fatima rather than the Fatima here. because I wanted that part of my life to be very different from the part of my life here at home.

[00:06:54] Fatima: You know, my family, most of my family, my immediate family don't know what I do. I'm I'm the youngest child, so I'm always gonna be in, in that pecking order. And I have seven brothers and sisters, Um, But I don't talk about my work with my family. My mom doesn't know what I do. She, she likes seeing my name when I was a PD on the tally, and she was very proud about that.

[00:07:15] Fatima: But they didn't, they don't understand what a commissioner does. They don't understand what an MD does. I have purposely, Kind of, you know, when I am with them, I am Fatima, their kid sister or their rubbish daughter [00:07:30] or whatever I am. I kind of, kept that my work life very separate from what I do with my family.

[00:07:38] Kimberly: was that a

[00:07:38] Kimberly: conscious decision?

[00:07:39] Fatima: definitely. I didn't wanna explain to, I just didn't wanna explain to them. I couldn't be bothered to know, I could sense they were proud of me. And, and as I've talked about this during my career, I've realized that maybe the issue is with me So when you first asked me to do the imposter club, part of me spent a lot of time thinking about it. And as I said to you, I only did this because, I have a really good working relationship with you and I, I've said no to lots of things And part of the reason was I hate that word imposter because I spent so long feeling like an imposter and the word that I'd use more, I think when I describe myself or I think about my journey, is I always kind of felt like an outsider. And if I trace it back, from the age of 15 when I moved from Stoke Trent to London, I, I moved a critical period of my education where everybody else had decided their GCSEs and they were in their final year of school.

[00:08:36] Fatima: And I was the outsider who'd come from Stoke and spent a lot of time sitting in the library and spoke a bit weird. And especially when I moved into tele at the bbc, I was an outsider because I hadn't been to university and I'd was working in the hallowed grounds of meuse and current affairs, and yet I hadn't been to university.

[00:08:56] Fatima: And I think in every job as I've gone [00:09:00] up the ladder, I've always kind of felt that I'm the outsider. But when I talk to younger people, I hate this. I, I, I feel such a pain in my heart when I hear them using words like imposter and imposter syndrome and how they felt imposters because I, I just want to shake them and say, please don't spend all your time thinking about that.

[00:09:20] Fatima: Don't believe you are like that. I spent so much of my career thinking I was an imposter and it caused me a lot of grief and a lot of pain, and I just can't bear the thought of them having to go through that.

[00:09:35] Kimberly: Do you think, that the word imposter has been

[00:09:37] Kimberly: hijacked a bit as.

[00:09:39] Fatima: Yeah, it, it has, I think I've noticed that in the last three to four years, it's, it's kind of become a word that you look at people who stand up and, and are accepting awards and they're saying, oh my God, I'm suffering from imposter syndrome. And I just look at them and I think, no, you're not, you. , you know, the industry has had people who were handpicked, handpicked and chosen to have certain paths in their lives because they had amazing champions and they had amazing supporters and they had a gilded career in terms of getting into leadership positions. And it makes me feel really angry because I think to myself, you've never felt like an imposter ever.

[00:10:19] Fatima: And you are using that because you want to come across as really humble and, want to come across as kind of acknowledging that you've had some kind of, you know, a difficult path in your [00:10:30] life. And. Maybe some of them have maybe, I don't know that, but I do. Sometimes it feels a bit galling when you are talking to, to a group to hear that.

[00:10:41] Fatima: And you think to yourself, you've never been an imposter in your fucking life. You've got no idea of how hard it is to graft to this, to get to these positions. So don't use that word, which is why I hate it so much is, is that I just think it's being used by people to kind of, you know, to say, alright mate, I'm just like you as well, and, and you're not, you're not like us.

[00:11:04] Kimberly: Got it. I mean, maybe it's very personal as well, like you've just acknowledged maybe there's things, you look at someone and you go, you can't have experienced that, but actually you don't

[00:11:13] Kimberly: know something about

[00:11:13] Kimberly: their story perhaps.

[00:11:15] Fatima: Kimberly. And you're absolutely right about that Mar I dunno, everybody's story. I might not know what they're talking about,

[00:11:22] Kimberly: But there are also different ways aren't there to experience it. Like actually I think what, what has come out from my conversations already are there are lots of different types, there are lots of different names for it. As you've just said actually, your version and how you feel about it is deeply personal and we'll go into your, your career in the times that you have felt like an outsider as you put it.

[00:11:41] Kimberly: But there are also, there are people who have felt a bit uncomfortable in a situation and found it funny and used that as a kind of, this is a bit of an out of body experience. That's probably what you are

[00:11:50] Kimberly: talking about. That

[00:11:51] Kimberly: slightly Gs you.

[00:11:52] Fatima: Yeah. Yeah. I, I think so. But I think that when black or brown people, [00:12:00] LGBTQ people use it.

[00:12:02] Fatima: You can absolutely understand it straight away and you know Yeah, yeah, I know exactly when you're talking about and working class people and women who've been overlooked. um,

[00:12:14] Kimberly: I do really wanna thank you as well for saying yes to doing this. And I really mean that because like you say, you, I mean you, you have had and are continuing to have a really successful career with big titles. you've, come up through the ranks, you can tell us about that. But you've been a commissioning editor at the BBC and at Channel four, the MD of an incredibly successful, company naked.

[00:12:37] Kimberly: And I do think people will come to this episode and think, you know, how can Fatima Celia have felt, , like an imposter or an outsider or have had struggles in her career? Because look at, look at her. Do you want to just explain again, why, why it's so important for you to sort of come and talk about how you have felt the emotional challenges of your

[00:12:59] Kimberly: career?

[00:13:01] Fatima: Thank you for saying all of that, Kimberly. It's really, um, it helps me as well when you acknowledge that it helps me acknowledge my growth and how I've changed as a person. So thanks for saying that because as I said, I am very, very hard on myself and I am very critical of myself.

[00:13:20] Fatima: Um, and I think it's because of the industry we work in. So sometimes I don't acknowledge or see those achievements. , I think for me, there's two [00:13:30] things. , I am acutely aware that everybody has a shelf life in Tully and that you, you can be flavor of the month and you can fall out with people and that that can really affect you.

[00:13:42] Fatima: I also sense. When I was an assistant commissioner, that that's when my career path really changed. And I got, I was noticed for the right things and the wrong things, but I was acutely aware of people saying a few things to me.

[00:13:58] Fatima: One about it's brilliant that you are really honest and open and you talk about your own journey in terms of telly. And I thought that was a bad thing. I thought being. Trying to relate my own personal story to other people's story. I kind of felt sometimes that people thought that I was oversharing too much or that, you know, I've gotta stop going on about the fact that I haven't been to university or that I was born in the north, or that, you know, we were free school meals kids, because somehow I was doing that to generate publicity around myself or my profile.

[00:14:31] Fatima: I used to think to myself, if I'd had somebody like me 10 years ago, or even 20 years ago, who was willing and open to talk about stuff that would've made a massive impact for me. I think about it when I think about that generation of black footballers like Les Ferdinand, who for years and years, and Ian Wright suffered racism in the football clubs, but never, ever talked about it when they were doing the job.

[00:14:58] Fatima: And I remember years ago when they all started to [00:15:00] come out and they talked about that and the promotions that weren't given to them and the way they were treated and people who didn't stand up for them. And it used to make me so angry cause I used to think, why didn't you say that at the time when you were going through that? And then as I grew older and wiser, I realize why people cannot say things when they are in the moments when they are going through those things. But actually the fact that Ian and Les. John Barnes and other people, and Sol Campbell talked about it now gives a lot of hope to a younger generation of black footballers.

[00:15:37] Fatima: And if you look at them now and you see the way Marcus Rafi is and you see the way soccer is and you see the pride that they have in terms of being black footballers and not, and not taking the shit that those other guys had to do, you know, that's because those other lads have have shared, the older generation, have shared that experiences with them, that I think has empowered them

[00:16:00] Fatima: so I think whenever I share my stories or whenever I talk to people like. I want to be able to say to people, regardless of how many promotions or how long it took me to get to where I am, it doesn't matter because you'll get there earlier now, and I can help you get there earlier by sharing this story that you don't have to go to university and you don't have to come from a wealthy background and you don't have to have a support network of people [00:16:30] or champions or mates or whatever.

[00:16:32] Fatima: You can still progress. It'll take you a bit longer, but actually we're making it a little bit easier because we're gonna create our own networks and our own tables and we're gonna help you up that ladder and we are always gonna be there, some of us to, to show you how it can be done. So I think things like that are incredibly important to me to be able to share, share all of that.

[00:16:57] Fatima: I think the thing that I'm so proud of doing is being the chair of, Edinburgh, because that's where I can make tangible. Difference. And I can make decisions and we can make changes.

[00:17:08] Kimberly: Edinburgh is, it's just a fan. It's a fantastic role for you, Fatima. I see why it suits you in so many ways and one honor to have been asked to do it because you're making tangible change like from the top. And also what I love about Edinburgh is, yeah, of course you get, you get all the, you know, the new schemes through, but you have people who are brand new as well as incredibly experienced, all attending the festival, all hanging out together, all doing panels.

[00:17:31] Kimberly: And you know, the content of that is vital to hit the spot with what we're all talking

[00:17:37] Kimberly: about and how we

[00:17:37] Kimberly: feel.

[00:17:39] Fatima: But when Graham, lovely, Graham Stewart talked to me about this, um, I'd just taken the job at Naked and he talked to me about it. And when they rang me, I did that typical thing of whenever I get a big job, I was like, you, you, uh, you want me to do this? And he was like, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I said, do you mean the advisory chair?

[00:17:59] Fatima: And they went, no, the [00:18:00] executive chair. And I. What the job for three years, and he went, yeah, my job. And I must have spent about five or 10 minutes and, and, and Campbell still ribs me about this, about the fact that they'd made a mistake that they couldn't have been thinking about me doing that job because somehow I didn't think I was worthy of doing that job or I didn't deserve that job.

[00:18:22] Fatima: And it took me about two to three weeks to accept that. I couldn't, I just couldn't Kimberly whatever he said to me, except the fact that they had asked me to do this.

[00:18:33] Fatima: And I even remember my first Edinburgh. Board meeting, I was apologizing. , here are the great and the good of TV on this board and here is this girl. Cuz that's how I see myself as the chair of Edinburgh. And I am addressing these people and I am having to apologize for the fact and to say, I bet some of you are really shocked that I've got this job.

[00:19:01] Fatima: I bet you're all thinking, oh, she's got this job cuz she's brown and she's a woman. And, um, I just want to lay out why I think I should have this

[00:19:11] Fatima: job.

[00:19:12] Kimberly: you really say that

[00:19:12] Kimberly: to them

[00:19:13] Kimberly: in that meeting?

[00:19:14] Fatima: yeah, my first board meeting, , I've even got it written, I wrote it all down on a piece of paper and I've still got that.

[00:19:20] Fatima: I look at it.

[00:19:21] Kimberly: Did you run this by anyone before you did it? Like your family or

[00:19:24] Kimberly: friends?

[00:19:25] Fatima: I just did it. I just did it.

[00:19:27] Kimberly: And this is only three years ago, right? So you'd already been a [00:19:30] commissioning editor

[00:19:31] Kimberly: to

[00:19:31] Kimberly: the Terrestrials by

[00:19:32] Kimberly: this point.

[00:19:33] Fatima: I was the MD of Naked and I was almost apologizing and saying to them, I know what you're all thinking, but actually this is why I'm good for this job. And I remember, I remember just this luck look of puzzlement on some of the great and the good.

[00:19:50] Fatima: I mean, these are people who I've been their researchers. These are people who, you know, I admire hugely in television. These are people that, you know, I still quake in my shoes when I have to do panels and I have to sit next to these people. And I am in awe of these people. And I felt I didn't deserve that.

[00:20:13] Kimberly: What was their

[00:20:13] Kimberly: reaction?

[00:20:14] Fatima: Their reaction when they were very sweet, they didn't say anything because I can imagine they were most probably really, really embarrassed by it. And you know, w we're kind of a bit, why is she doing this? But that's the thing, Kimberly, that's the thing about me, is that I'm not polished and I'm not the finished article and I never will be. And I speak from my heart and I speak from things that really matter to me. , and that might be a good thing or a bad thing, and I'm sure. my directness at times and my honesty at times has caused some issues for people in Tely. I think when you run a business and you are at the beck and call of powerful people in Tully who, who are gonna make or break your company, you have to adapt in a [00:21:00] certain way and you have to behave in a certain way.

[00:21:02] Fatima: And I'm very good at reading those rooms, but I'm also very good at thinking, okay, I will always be polite and kind in whatever I say, but I am gonna say what I want to

[00:21:15] Fatima: say now.

[00:21:16] Kimberly: Right. It's almost like a coping mechanism as well, I think is, isn't it in terms of you wanting to, justify your position, but also to get across this emotion in your head and being direct and honest as well, that was the best way you felt to approach that situation at Edinburgh in

[00:21:32] Kimberly: your first.

[00:21:34] Fatima: Yeah, totally. I wanted them to know that this meant a lot to me, but every job, Kimberly, every big job that I've had, even, from my assistant commissioner job, I thought I, well, it was, it was catered towards getting black and Asian people into commissioning. And I, I'm Asian and then I constantly think that all the jobs that I get are because I'm an Asian woman.

[00:22:01] Fatima: And I think. I have got to this stage now where I think I might have let go of that a little bit now because I've been in such big jobs and knowing the way television works. If I was shit in those jobs, I would've been sacked straight away. So I've kind of stopped thinking like that now, which is why that whole word imposter syndrome, it's like, when are you gonna get rid of this? When are you [00:22:30] gonna stop being like this and believe that you have earned the right?

[00:22:34] Kimberly: we've got a website. Head to the imposter club.com. Where you can contact the show and sign up to receive our emails. As we build a warm community of creative imposters for world domination. Why don't get FOMO and head to the imposter club.com after this app.-

[00:22:55] Kimberly: There, Do you think there's ever been a time where feeling like an outsider or being an

[00:22:58] Kimberly: outsider was a

[00:22:59] Kimberly: good.

[00:23:00] Fatima: Yeah, definitely, definitely. I'd say commissioning was where when I got really confident, um, about, and proud of the fact that I was working class, proud of the fact that I came from the north and that I was an Asian woman when I was commissioning things that I felt so passionately about Muslims like ours, the partition sequence, um, season pilgrimage, abortion, um, documentaries, ideas that were coming from brilliant indies that were coming to me with these pokey ideas because they knew I would champion them because I really, really believed in them.

[00:23:40] Fatima: And I'd come in and I'd go into those commissioning meetings with Patrick and Charlottes and people like that. And I would say, this is, these are the, they'd know that this is a fasser. Because they know that I have that energy and that passion for those ideas. The happiest I have ever been [00:24:00] was being the commissioning editor for Religion at the BBC and working with Tom McDonald and Craig and gni and Simon and Jack Beatle for a little while.

[00:24:09] Fatima: That is definitely. Being an outsider really helped me because I would say to them, you, you guys are all talking from the same book here. I'm different. Listen to what I'm saying. And so I was able to kind of do that and, and I loved that. I loved the fact that people there understood that and they got me.

[00:24:30] Fatima: And, um, they knew how to bring the best out of me and championed me. And helped

[00:24:34] Fatima: me.

[00:24:35] Kimberly: I'd love to go back, um, to the early part of your career because I think what is very interesting for people to understand is a route up. So, so you already said actually you didn't go to uni. What was your first job

[00:24:49] Kimberly: in,

[00:24:50] Kimberly: in tv?

[00:24:51] Fatima: So my first job in Tully was a researcher on a program called Network East, which was from Pebble Mill, um, in Birmingham. And I was working as a journalist on a London magazine, and they rang me up because they liked some of the urban, edgy poppy stuff that I was doing, and they wanted to revamp the Asian program unit.

[00:25:12] Fatima: I got a researcher's job for six months. I jumped up very quickly to being an AP and the thing that I loved was the directing and the researching of the ideas and finding the ideas and going on the road and the camaraderie that you build with a cameraman and [00:25:30] a crew and your editor and stuff like that.

[00:25:32] Fatima: I loved the grammar of telly, but I knew that I, I didn't know that much about it. I was really young. 21 or

[00:25:39] Fatima: something.

[00:25:41] Kimberly: And

[00:25:41] Kimberly: how did you feel that you fit in at this point? You know, we, did you feel

[00:25:44] Kimberly: confident in what you were

[00:25:46] Kimberly: doing at that

[00:25:46] Fatima: I I was young and outspoken and direct and. I spent three and a half years, which were kind of my university years really, if you think about it, at Pebble Mill, um, away from home for the first time, working with a lot of older people, which was great for me, but also it was an Asian unit, so I felt incredibly at home there.

[00:26:09] Fatima: We spoke this a different language. We, you know, were all bonded together and, um, it felt a, it just felt like an extension of a family and I felt really great, but around me. You know, I would never venture. So, so programs being made then were like the close show with Salina Scott and Jeff Banks was at Pebble Mill.

[00:26:33] Fatima: Top gear was opposite ours. And you'd see Clarkson and some of the other guys coming in and out and Diamond used to do Pebble Mill at one or whatever it was. And then there was this funny program, this radio, I remember this radio big sign that used to say The archers go that way. And I had no idea what the arches were.

[00:26:51] Fatima: And, and it's now one of my most favorite programs, but we all existed in this bubble. We all kind of felt that we'd never break [00:27:00] out to go and work on those big white shows. We were the Asian people that worked on the Asian shows. Which was fine for me cause I loved it.

[00:27:08] Fatima: I had no issue with it. But I kind of then begun to realize that if you were black or Asian, you worked on black or Asian shows, and there were very few people who were breaking out to work on

[00:27:19] Fatima: white shows

[00:27:20] Kimberly: Right. So top gear weren't like poaching any of your

[00:27:24] Kimberly: team.

[00:27:25] Fatima: no, no. It did feel very different. I found it very hard when I came back to. I found it really hard to get a break onto a show. So I went freelance and a lot of my freelancing work was around black or Asian stories.

[00:27:45] Fatima: So I was still always pigeonholed. I wasn't able to break out into the more mainstream

[00:27:50] Fatima: shows.

[00:27:51] Kimberly: So how, how did you

[00:27:53] Kimberly: make that

[00:27:53] Kimberly: leap?

[00:27:54] Fatima: I went as a researcher, um, onto Panorama and it was a program about the Asian community and I did two panoramas like that. And then Eventually, got a staff job at the BBC on a program called Public Eye, and began to break out then. And, , w was making programs about girl gangs, was making programs about lottery winners.

[00:28:17] Fatima: Was, able to show that I could diversify, but also that my strength was people. My U s P was getting out on the ground and knocking on doors and stomping around the [00:28:30] north and council states

[00:28:31] Fatima: getting the best people

[00:28:32] Kimberly: that, That was your

[00:28:32] Kimberly: journalism

[00:28:33] Kimberly: coming into play as

[00:28:34] Fatima: and that was my journalism I always kind of felt that my twenties was, I was just constantly learning all the time, and it was brilliant. I spent a very long time being an ap, seven years or so, being an ap I knew I wanted to be really good and, I knew I had to work really hard and there wasn't an issue for me that I'd been in AP for

[00:28:57] Fatima: seven years.

[00:28:58] Kimberly: Was that a conscious decision not to jump up too quickly to the next role, I mean, were you offered more senior

[00:29:05] Kimberly: roles and decided

[00:29:05] Kimberly: not to take them?

[00:29:06] Fatima: No, I was never offered anything senior. I saw a lot of my peers go off onto bigger shows and I was always kind of, why can't I go and work on some of those bigger shows? And I realized that it wasn't as easy as just going and getting those jobs. You had to have somebody who was fighting your corner for you.

[00:29:25] Fatima: And I didn't really have anybody that was fighting my corner for me. So people who went off to work on bigger shows had mentors and they had champions and they had people who saw something in

[00:29:35] Fatima: them.

[00:29:36] Kimberly: . Why do you think you didn't have any?

[00:29:39] Fatima: I was just never felt I really belonged in that world. So that was where my outsider thing came in.

[00:29:48] Fatima: That was when I really felt that I'd never, because I hadn't been to university and I'm talking about Oxford or Cambridge, And those lots of people had that they knew each other [00:30:00] and that there was a shorthand. You know, I didn't go to pubs to drink. I didn't go out and get pissed every night.

[00:30:06] Fatima: It was a world and a culture that I wasn't familiar with. I'd married quite young, I had a family. I was different. and I think that was a hindrance for me, Yeah, I

[00:30:17] Fatima: think

[00:30:17] Fatima: that really helped me back.

[00:30:19] Kimberly: It's sometimes an unconscious bias that people just, you know, down tools and head to the pub after work. And people don't think, ah, but I'm not getting to know Fatima very well because she never comes out.

[00:30:30] Kimberly: They're just, you know, socializing with the rest of the team. But inevitably that is where connections are made. Friendships are struck up. Um, and you, you can kind of get, get,

[00:30:40] Kimberly: in with

[00:30:40] Kimberly: people.

[00:30:41] Fatima: I always felt really awkward. I felt, because I'd got married quite young. It was, you know, and people might have thought I'd had an arranged marriage and all of that kind of stuff. You know, I didn't eat pork, I only ate halal food. , I didn't drink that much.

[00:30:58] Fatima: There was always some reason for me not to belong properly, but you know, I made some amazing friends who were still my friends now, and I have some firm friendships that I had from back then, you know, when I think back to it now, two of those women are Jewish and I shared a culture and there was a bond with family and food that they understood. So they understood me.

[00:31:27] Kimberly: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:29] Fatima: And so [00:31:30] that was really good.

[00:31:31] Kimberly: Mm. Do you know what, going around my head when you're explaining the different internal discussions that you are having with yourself at this point in your career as well, is that you said you felt like an outsider.

[00:31:44] Kimberly: But equally you are very direct and honest too it's quite a

[00:31:48] Kimberly: conflict, isn't

[00:31:48] Kimberly: it?

[00:31:49] Fatima: Yes. Massive. I just think my twenties and thirties, I was schizo. I was somebody different at work and then I was somebody different at

[00:31:57] Fatima: home

[00:31:58] Kimberly: That is exhausting.

[00:32:00] Fatima: yeah. But I can you imagine there's lots of people who had to kind of wear those mask things is what we talked about earlier.

[00:32:07] Kimberly: Do you think you were not yourself at work at that point then in, in your twenties, you

[00:32:11] Kimberly: were being

[00:32:11] Kimberly: someone else?

[00:32:12] Fatima: I think I was somebody else for a very, very long time. I could only be my true self with my firm Friends. But thank Kimberly. I got really good at putting an act on. I, I got better.

[00:32:25] Fatima: I watched people, I saw how people schmoozed, I saw what you had to do. I realized that I had to eat food that I didn't really understand and pretend to like it. I worked out that I, you know, maybe if I drank lemonade, people would think I was drinking wine in a wine glass. So I learned to play that system and I learned to kind of be different.

[00:32:49] Fatima: And to kind of watch the films that they watched go to the pubs that they went, I learned to infiltrate, not infiltrate. I learned to use those networks better[00:33:00] I learned to behave in a way that was acceptable or that was gonna get me to where I needed to go to.

[00:33:07] Kimberly: And When you're saying all of this, how does, how do you feel about it now?

[00:33:11] Fatima: um,

[00:33:12] Kimberly: Was it the right thing

[00:33:13] Kimberly: to

[00:33:14] Fatima: I, I kind of felt very resentful at times when I'd see people who I'd grown up alongside with in my TV career jumping ahead because they had somebody who thought they were brilliant and, and I spent a lot of time being angry about that. And then I realized that I had to change and it was okay-ish to do that.

[00:33:42] Fatima: I knew that I never wanted to leave telly. I did think that at some point. Um, but I knew that I loved what I did and I knew I was really good at this and it was such an amazing, glamorous, fantastic job to have and I loved that, but it was also really fucking hard work and difficult.

[00:34:02] Kimberly: this is The Imposter Club Coming up,

[00:34:06] Fatima: that's hurtful sometimes.

[00:34:08] Fatima: Cuz basically people are calling you a coconut because you're not a true version of who you are.

[00:34:12] Kimberly: . If this is your first time listening to The Imposter Club, please hit subscribe so you don't miss an episode, and so that we can reach more people. After all, the more people that are safe inside the Imposter Club, the fewer there are outside on their own.

[00:34:27] Kimberly: Let's get back to this episode of the [00:34:30] impostor club, where X commissioner and indie boss, Fatima sylaria and I are discussing the personal cost of code switching.

[00:34:38] Kimberly: Do you think any of, that, putting on a front, you know, playing the game, changing your behavior, do you think any of that made you better at what you did, or are they

[00:34:49] Kimberly: completely

[00:34:50] Fatima: no, they made me good. They made me able to sit in a room with lots of powerful people and learn to talk their

[00:34:57] Fatima: language

[00:34:58] Fatima: you know, As I got producer, series producer, eventually into commissioning, I knew who these people were.

[00:35:07] Fatima: They weren't my tribe, they weren't my people. But I knew who these people were and I knew how I could. Navigate some of those conversations in some of those

[00:35:17] Fatima: rooms. Sometimes people talk about the fact that you have to be an acceptable black or brown people person to white people that doesn't make them feel uncomfortable.

[00:35:29] Fatima: And those black and brown people are the ones that get on in Intali, I've had that thrown at me by people at times that you are the acceptable brown person who works in a mostly white industry, but you know people like you because you say, yes a lot or you, you know how to speak their language and that's, that's hurtful sometimes.

[00:35:53] Fatima: Cuz basically people are calling you a coconut and they're basically saying it's okay for you because you're not a true version of [00:36:00] who you are. And it's load of bullshit really. Um, I'm really good at my job and I'm proud of what I've done and what I've achieved. And as I said earlier, if I were shit, those people would have no issue with getting rid of me.

[00:36:14] Fatima: I don't think I'm an acceptable brown girl that white people can get on with. But I think has it made, I think it has made me a different person, but what it's made me good at, and I've only realized this in the last eight years or something, I can navigate those rooms now, but I also know that it comes at a cost to me that won't come at a cost to other people who aren't black or brown.

[00:36:39] Kimberly: What is the cost of

[00:36:40] Kimberly: that?

[00:36:41] Fatima: I think the cost of that is that I can be outspoken in terms of. Culture and, and out outspoken in terms of what I think the failings are with our industry. And that can sometimes be used against me cuz that could prevent me from getting a job or that could prevent me from winning business for my company .

[00:37:05] Fatima: that I'm running or leading. also I think other people who don't have those issues or don't want to take part in this kind of work, the extracurricular work that we all do, um, have an easier ride of that. They just focus on winning a lot of money for their companies and making their programs fantastic because they don't need to bother with all the other stuff.

[00:37:27] Fatima: And that makes me angry.

[00:37:29] Kimberly: Well I know [00:37:30] you and lots of other people who work in, , the D D E I space or those who are from a minority background do so much work for free because it's something you're passionate about, something you really wanna, you know, make a difference, , with. But it's on top of the day job. It's emotionally draining.

[00:37:47] Kimberly: Um, and yeah, it is vital. And so you're constantly struggling with, you want to do more, but you can't necessarily take it all on can

[00:37:54] Kimberly: you?

[00:37:54] Fatima: Yeah. It's that, that's the thing that makes me, I think the angriest Now when, when I think about that and, um, you know, when people say to me, God, you're in broadcast again, or, God, you're on this panel again, or, God, you're doing this again. And I just think, yeah, right. Nobody stops you guys from.

[00:38:15] Kimberly: Right, right.

[00:38:17] Kimberly: just to sort of backtrack a little bit, I am getting a sense of a, a now very experienced producer, series producer who has had her head down to work her ass off to be better, um, but who's also putting on a fac. Or a front at work personally to, to sort of get on or to cope.

[00:38:39] Kimberly: Obviously many sort of years of making programs then eventually leads to an assistant commissioner job. How did you feel when you got that role and when you walked in in that first

[00:38:51] Kimberly: week?

[00:38:52] Fatima: So you've summed it up really well actually, Kimberly, about who I was at that time. I'd got to a point where [00:39:00] I think the cost of doing all of that was really catching up on me. So I was becoming more miserable and more disillusioned.

[00:39:08] Fatima: With working in tele and really desperately wanted to leave but didn't know what to do, was scared about leaving, you know, had a huge amount of responsibility to family, like lots of us do, but knew that this job was making me so unhappy and I hated it so much. And I think it was years of feeling like that and feeling overlooked and working in quite a male environment, , where I felt I was a curiosity

[00:39:40] Fatima: and I was like, oh my God, how long do I have to keep doing this? So, wanted to leave tele and then saw this assistant commissioner role. Somebody said to me, you should apply for that role. I was quite resentful about it. I didn't want to be on a scheme. I didn't want to be part of. You know, another ethnic thing going on, put the form in, did the interview, got the job, and then had to decide whether or not I really wanted to do this.

[00:40:11] Fatima: And I remember, going to the first meeting where I still knew that I could still step away if I wanted, Charlotte Moore was there and she was incredibly honest and truthful about it, about whether or not this we were just show ponies for the BBC or whether or not this was actually gonna lead to something tangible, indifferent.[00:40:30]

[00:40:30] Fatima: But for the first time ever, I felt that things could change. And I remember it's so clearly that she said to me, we are not gonna guarantee you a job at the end of this. You have to make what you want of this position yourself.

[00:40:45] Fatima: And that was fine to me because that is what I'd spent all my career doing, is making the best of every single position that I'd got and showing them that I was really good and that I could come up with great ideas and I could make really good programs and I could work with some brilliant people. So that didn't

[00:41:03] Fatima: frightened me in the

[00:41:04] Kimberly: No, that was music

[00:41:05] Kimberly: to your ears. You

[00:41:06] Kimberly: were like, yes, this is my kind of job.

[00:41:08] Fatima: I can do that. That's absolutely fine. . And then walking into commissioning, um, was terrifying and really scary. It was quite a harsh environment to go in. It was quite clubby. It was quite cliquey. People knew each other. It was quite siloed. It was hard. People worked really hard

[00:41:30] Fatima: I learned so much. And one of the things I remember doing most was I'd go into rooms and I'd just sit quietly and I would just absorb for weeks and weeks and weeks, I would just sit quietly and I would just absorb the atmosphere and I worked out, oh, that's how you talk to Charlotte.

[00:41:47] Fatima: Oh, that's how you talk to Patrick. Okay, this is my moment now to speak. So I basically was able to absorb all of that information quietly and then start [00:42:00] using it in a way that was really good.

[00:42:01] Kimberly: That sounds like, um, it was your secret weapon. I love the idea of giving that as advice to someone listening who's in a new environment or a new job that you sit and you absorb and you think, and you watch.

[00:42:15] Fatima: I mean, I so many times, Kimberly, I would go, come out at commissioning meetings and I wouldn't say a word and people would say, fat tomine, you have to say something. And I was like, but I don't wanna say anything. I just wanna listen

[00:42:28] Kimberly: You must have been a tough crowd to pitch to,

[00:42:31] Kimberly: I'm trying to read what does she think? Does she hate it? Does she love it? Is there something

[00:42:34] Kimberly: here?

[00:42:35] Fatima: Reading the room and knowing how to be with people and. To say something and when not to say something and when to basically stop talking was a huge thing for me. Those rooms are the scariest rooms in the world and you know, but they are also the rooms that you can learn a lot from.

[00:42:55] Kimberly: Mm-hmm. Okay. So from commissioning, I mean, you went into Channel four as well, and I imagine you felt pretty confident by that point. I would hope. I mean, how were you faring on the imposter syndrome scale at

[00:43:08] Kimberly: that point?

[00:43:09] Fatima: Um, I think going to Channel four and becoming head of specialist factual was brilliant for me. And leaving the BBC after almost 30 years was the right move for me to make cuz I knew that I had to grow. I kind of thought opportunities like this don't come very often to people like me, so I've absolutely got to take this opportunity and I've gotta take this [00:43:30] job.

[00:43:30] Fatima: So I think that was really preying on my mind. I love channel four. And I, all my life wanted to work at Channel four. So just walking through those doors, I'm on the first day when I got that job was such a special moment for me.

[00:43:45] Kimberly: And where was the Fatima Armor at this

[00:43:47] Kimberly: point? was it

[00:43:48] Kimberly: high up or was

[00:43:49] Kimberly: it lower down?

[00:43:50] Fatima: it was a bit lower down because actually it was quite low down because I felt I could be, I felt I was working with like-minded people.

[00:43:59] Fatima: And we shared a, our value system was very similar. We shared a love of programs, all of that kind of stuff. . So I had my people, I had my people in that place. And so my armor was down and I think I felt really happy that I could be who I wanted to be, you know?

[00:44:20] Fatima: And also Kimberly, I was way older then. It was almost like, I was like, you know what? This is who I am. If you don't like it, then that's fine. You know? I still had to watch myself. I was still very aware of how I was and what I was being and things like that. But I was so much more confident about who I was and what, what I wanted to be.

[00:44:39] Fatima: The thing that Channel Four gave me was that boost of confidence They loved me for who I was. So being direct wasn't an issue. Going to Channel four allowed me to really step up and to talk about what I believed in and what my values were and all of that stuff. So I'm [00:45:00] incredibly grateful What you've just said is that by your employer supporting you to be completely yourself made you awesome at your job. Okay? You didn't say that, but I'm gonna chuck that back at you as a compliment. Um, but it, that, that is why I think, , if you can be an inclusive environment, you will get the best out of your team.

[00:45:22] Kimberly: And that's exactly what you've just said. Because in your twenties when you were being a completely different person, or not being allowed, or not feeling like you could be yourself, you threw everything into your work. Which did you well, but didn't make you a happy person necessarily,

[00:45:40] Kimberly: and led to you potentially trying to leave the industry, which would've been

[00:45:44] Kimberly: awful.

[00:45:45] Fatima: Yeah, well, all of that stuff that I think I learned from Channel four about people and culture and values, and what was really important for me was why I took that naked job. I was so excited about the fact that I would be , an Asian woman running a big indie that had just been. Merged with Boundless and, and kind of the challenges were enormous for the first 18 months.

[00:46:11] Fatima: Enormous. And kind of building that new culture of what the New Naked stood for and winning business at the same time and delivering ideas that were still gonna be nominated for awards and

[00:46:26] Fatima: getting the best people to come and work at Naked and to Love [00:46:30] Naked and to talk about it in a way was one of my biggest achievements the best bit of my job. Absolutely. The best bit of it.

[00:46:36] Kimberly: Can you talk about what's

[00:46:37] Kimberly: next yet?

[00:46:38] Kimberly: What are you gonna do now that you've

[00:46:39] Kimberly: left naked?

[00:46:40] Fatima: honest to goodness, Kimberly, I have no idea of what is next. I know that I will stay in tele. So I'm not gonna leave and run an Airbnb or open a coffee shop in Richmond or anything like that.

[00:46:52] Fatima: But I got to a stage of my life, if I'm really honest. Towards the end of last year when I didn't feel happy and I felt sad and I didn't wanna wake up every day going to sleep, feeling sad and waking up feeling sad. I knew that I wanted to just reconnect back with the softer side of tele and, you know, still doing Edinburgh is a brilliant way for me to still be involved in telli and to do the things that really matter to me, and that makes me really excited.

[00:47:24] Fatima: But I dunno what I'm gonna do. I honestly don't know. I wish I could tell you something exciting, but no, I

[00:47:29] Fatima: don't know.

[00:47:30] Kimberly: But it, it's also quite an incredible answer considering everything you've told me about your, you know, struggles and challenges with yourself and with your environment over the years. I mean, that's a very different Fatima who can walk away from a massive job.

[00:47:47] Fatima: It took me about six months, Kimberly, to make this decision. People thought that either I was having a breakdown or that I'd been offered some big Netflix or Amazon job, or that I was going to set up my own company. I, I was in a brilliant job. [00:48:00] Running Naked is brilliant. It was a such a privilege and an honor, And I am in awe of people who carry on doing those big, big jobs that they do for a long time. But I'm not that person and I just wanted to become, go away and become a more relaxed person and to rediscover that love of why I got into telly in the first place and I was losing that love.

[00:48:25] Fatima: And that's what made me really sad.

[00:48:27] Kimberly: Well, I really respect you, having identified that and then made a big decision to do what's right by you. Looking back then at all these pivotal moments in one conversation is, it's a lot, isn't it? Do you, would you say that you believe in yourself now?

[00:48:46] Fatima: Oh. I totally believe in myself. Now, I, I know I do because when I sit and talk to people who are younger than me, I sit and I listen to myself, and I think, God, I wish I'd take some of that advice myself. I absolutely believe in myself now. And that's why I wanted to do this podcast because I thought, I'm not an imposter anymore.

[00:49:11] Fatima: I don't have that syndrome anymore. I'm, I don't mind being the outsider. I quite like being an outsider. It's cool,

[00:49:18] Fatima: But I do properly believe in who I am. And, and I do that through when I look at my achievements of everything that I've achieved and also working in those big high pressured jobs. [00:49:30] If I was a fake and if I couldn't do it, .

[00:49:32] Fatima: I would've been sacked. So, All of that makes me feel a lot happier in my skin about who I am and what, what I do now.

[00:49:42] Kimberly:

[00:49:43] Kimberly: Of all the things that you say to the people you mentor, what would you say to your

[00:49:48] Kimberly: younger self

[00:49:49] Kimberly: now if you had the

[00:49:51] Fatima: Oh my God. You are absolutely brilliant, and it might take you longer, but it will be worth it. But absolutely believe in yourself and who you are as a person and your life experiences don't have to be the same as everybody else's. Use that as your superpower. Embrace your superpower.

[00:50:11] Fatima: Embrace being an outsider and being from a different part of that world, because everybody will remember you in that room when you walk out because being different is fantastic.

[00:50:22] Kimberly: That is

[00:50:22] Kimberly: brilliant advice.

[00:50:23] Kimberly: I wish I could kind of dial those years back. But for you, but, but maybe you wouldn't have grown such a thick skin or learnt so much. , no one teaches us much in tely today, and we grow up as we grow through the industry.

[00:50:37] Fatima: , You're so right, Kimberly. If I hadn't gone through all of those experiences, I wouldn't be the person that I am now, and I wouldn't be a person that can speak with an authenticity because of those experiences that I've been through. And some of them were good, some of them were bad. But that's why I placed so much emphasis on my friendships and the people that I met along the way, because those are the ones [00:51:00] that have really propped me up and helped me, and I can help them.

[00:51:04] Fatima: But you are right. If I hadn't gone through those scars, , I wouldn't be the person that

[00:51:07] Fatima: I am

[00:51:08] Kimberly: no, no.

[00:51:09] Kimberly: Well, thank you so much for sharing. So candidly, um, I sort of feel like you've, despite the fact that you've chucked imposter out of the window, I'm loving that you can be like an anti imposter inside the imposter club. But you are in, you are in our warm embrace because of everything that you've said

[00:51:26] Fatima: Thank you for making it easy, because these conversations sometimes are really hard to have and you can only ever have these conversations with somebody who you trust

[00:51:36] Fatima: We still have such a long way to go in tele and what I'd hate for people to do is to feel like me, where they wanted to lead the industry. Cause I didn't think they were gonna be recognized enough.

[00:51:49] Fatima: That's really heartbreaking .

[00:51:51] Kimberly: No. I value everything you've said and I really

[00:51:55] Kimberly: appreciate

[00:51:56] Fatima: Thank you

[00:51:57] Fatima: Thanks Kimberly, Right. Come on in post is let's get everyone talking about this stuff more. Open up your WhatsApp groups and tell your production pals. They need to listen to the imposter club. Everyone loves the podcast recommend, and this is so relevant for them. So that Q dos you'll get back is a free gift from me.

[00:52:17] Kimberly: See you next time.

[00:52:20] Kimberly: The imposter club is brought to you by talented people. The specialist TV, executive search and production staffing company. Run by content [00:52:30] makers for content makers. Every day, the team match-make influence and place premium senior talent. In behind the screens roles with integrity and a human approach.

[00:52:42] Kimberly: Produced and hosted by me, Kimberly Godbolt, executive producer, Rosie Turner.