From Sewers to Streamers: Dov Freedman on the frustrations that fuelled him to set up Curious Films

Transcript

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The Imposter Club is produced by talented people, staffing and headhunting company in TV production with a mission to make the industry a happier, more creatively diverse place.

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Coming up,

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I think I've made stuff that was probably considered quite low rent, but I think it enabled me to, you know, put the hard yards in, learn the craft more, learn it on the job.

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This is The Imposter Club, the podcast uniting all us tv, film, and content folk secretly stressing that everyone else has it sorted.

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Except us.

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I'm Kimberly Godbolt, TV director, turn staff and company founder.

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And each episode I want you to hear the real story of a successful industry figure.

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Not the glossy announcements we usually see, but the truth of their career journey, including the bumpy bits to help you make sense of your own health warning.

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This podcast may incur whiplash from violent nodding plus an unfamiliar, but hopefully welcome feeling of belonging,

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Swiping his pass.

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To get into the Imposter Club today is Dov Freedman, c e o and co-founder of Curious Films, the production company that in just five years has already brought us a brilliant mix of weighty high quality biopics, like the ones you've likely seen on Amy Winehouse, Caroline Flack, and Paula Yates Popular factor returning series like squad goals and premium, single docs on cancer, climate change, and court cases for both global streamers and UK Terrestrials.

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Born in Leeds, Dov worked his way up through the documentary ranks to director and eventually exec producer and head of docs.

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So there's a whole freelance life before his founding of Curious, which I'm keen to dig into and find out how he navigated that time and what led him to setting up his own company, which incidentally has just been nominated this year as Best Small Indie at Edinburgh TV Festival Awards.

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Woo-hoo Dov.

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Welcome to The Imposter Club.

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Thank you, Kimberly.

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That's a very nice introduction.

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Slightly made me blush

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Sometimes it's quite nice to be reminded of the stuff you've achieved in this, uh, very, um, subjective challenging industry, right?

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Yeah.

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Well, we had a Covid sandwich in the middle of that as well.

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Unusual time to be setting up just before a pandemic.

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Yeah.

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Year before.

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Um, so, you know, the premise of the Imposter Club.

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How would you describe your relationship with imposter syndrome Dov?

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Uh, I think my relationship with imposter syndrome probably varies through at different stages of your career.

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I think when you're trying something different, if you've gone from researching a ping, making, directing, series, producing, and then trying to set up a company, I think it's at those initial first stages where you're trying to take on what feels like a, a new role.

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Um, but I think we all feel that, right.

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This is why your, this is why your podcast has been such a success.

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Uh, uh, what I'm learning through all these conversations I'm having, yeah.

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Is that everyone defines it in a different way or feels it in a different way.

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Um, and perhaps doesn't even agree with the term, but has their own challenges with the way that they handle themselves or the way that they feel.

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Um, because it's such a freelance industry, it's so subjective.

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Um, it is, it's pretty brutal, isn't it?

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And, and, and as a creative person, there's no right answer is there?

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So you're always gonna be going, how can it be better?

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How can, maybe I'm not good enough.

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Yeah.

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And I've identified with quite a lot of that, and I think it keeps you, you never want to go into a new role or a new project feeling complacent.

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And I think this feeling of imposter syndrome keeps you on your toes.

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And I think creatively, that's, if you, if you, uh, embrace that in the right way, that can be really helpful.

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I have never met another Dov, and so I did a bit of, um, host style ternet research and found out that if this is true, in your case, it's of Hebrew or Origin, it's rooted in the Yiddish name meaning bear, which according to this baby name website that I looked at, um, means, uh, it it has a fierce meaning with a gentle image.

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Would you say that that accurately A, describes you and b describes your name?

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So there's one question that I get asked at least twice a day and have done probably for the last 40 years.

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And it's always goes one way.

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It's, oh, do that's an unusual name.

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What's that short for?

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I think traditionally, like over the years or when I was first breaking into the industry, and you know, also my childhood, I'd probably always go for, oh, it's short for David or Dave, call me Dave.

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I mean, you know, some of my oldest friends call me Dave as a bit of a joke as that's, that's sort of my nickname <laugh>.

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But if I answer, actually it's my full name, then the next question that always comes is, oh, where's that come from?

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Which is probably why I've always probably said, oh, my name's short for David or something.

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So I don't, haven't always wanted to get into where my name comes from, which is either Israeli or Hebrew.

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Why do you think you don't wanna go into it?

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I think this probably taps into in some way why I feel like I'm part of your supposed imposter club or have imposter syndrome, whatever it is, and something that I felt would make my journey, my career in television difficult.

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You know, this, this is just, just sort of my feeling.

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But I think saying you are Jewish or you have an Israeli name or a Hebrew name, I think a lot of baggage comes with that.

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And I think I'm probably not the only Jew in this country to have a complicated relationship with Israel.

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I think it says a lot that you actually agreed that your name Yeah, yeah.

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Short for David.

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Just avoid the conversation.

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Yeah.

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Or,

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Or Dave, that's <laugh>

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Or Dave.

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Yeah, yeah, Dave, whatever, whatever.

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Just call me Dave.

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Um, that's really sad actually.

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Completely.

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And this, you know, this is, this is about to be my 25th year working in television.

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And I'd say it's probably only in the last sort of four or five years maybe since I set up curious that actually I am just a lot more certain about the way that I answer that question now.

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It's a really cool name and you should be proud of it.

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Thank you.

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I was given a, a more standard middle name in case I didn't like my given name.

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Is that right?

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Yeah.

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So even in your parents' minds, they were thinking about that.

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Yeah, definitely.

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For sure.

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You know, I was born in the seventies in Leeds.

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It's definitely a consideration.

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Hmm.

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So you were born in Leeds.

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Um, did you know you wanted to work in tele from a young age?

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And how did you end up in, in London working?

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Yeah, I mean, I, I, I'd always had, I mean, I'd always had the dream of, you know, if people wanted to be a, a footballer or an astronaut or something, I'd always wanted to kind of, the dream was to make, make movies in the film world.

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Uh, and I think I got, I got a chance to do a, a film history course in Manchester.

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And as part of the, I think as part of my second year, I had to do a placement and, uh, I got a placement, a documentary company for a couple of weeks, kind of building office furniture and making tea.

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Um, and then they'd just been commissioned to make a show about London sewers.

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Um, and no one wanted to go down the sewer and they needed someone to go down there.

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So I offered to go down the sewers with them.

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So they extended ended up extending me throughout the whole summer.

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And I worked there and, and, uh, kept in touch with them.

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I did some work with them in Manchester in my, my final year.

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Uh, they were making a series in Blackpool and then they offered me a job straight out of uni.

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Uh, so it was good.

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It was, yeah, that was, that was my entry in really, uh, iCare furniture and cup of tea and being willing to work down in London.

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Sew has got me, got me started.

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Did you know anyone who was work who worked in telly?

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Or did any of your family work in tv?

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No, um, I, my brother had a friend who worked in telly.

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Uh, he knew someone that worked in telly and, and yeah, they basically got me that, uh, the two weeks work experience.

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But yeah, no, I'd never met anyone that worked in telly before.

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Um, I think most everyone else in my family's got a proper job.

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It's is how it's sort of described

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<laugh>, which is, yeah.

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You kind of laugh along, don't you?

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And then you kind of think, yeah, maybe it would've been more sensible, see something a bit more stable.

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Yeah,

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No, exactly.

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What was your first job?

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So I, I wrote letters 'cause that's how old we are, right?

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I wrote letters.

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Um, again, I I didn't know anyone in telly.

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Um, and I wrote to all kinds of places, but my first work placement that I got was on uh, G M T V.

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Oh, yeah.

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Was that, what, was that what it was called?

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Yeah, the Bre the Breakfast Show.

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I I T V and then ended up, I think my first paid job, uh, was on Big Brother as a runner.

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Very good.

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Uh, big Brother's Little Brother, series two.

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Yeah.

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And I think that, that, for me, that was just, um, I think I was quite confident, actually, quite a few people have asked me, so what, what's my deal with imposter syndrome?

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Yeah.

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And I've, I feel lucky in that I've, I've had imposter syndrome moments.

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Yeah.

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Like I think, I think you'd be mad in, in probably any industry, but certainly in TV to never have felt it where I've had someone look past me, even while I'm getting my camera out of the bag, um, to set up, to film them, look past me and go, when's the cameraman turning up?

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And Oh, you are not filming, are you?

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Yeah, well, yes I am actually.

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And I'm, I'm fucking good at it.

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So I've had that, but what I've been quite fierce back, but inside I've gone, oh my God, actually this is, this is really scary.

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Yeah.

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Or when someone's told me that my edit was so boring, they wanted to poke their own eyes out with a pencil, that that was a highlight.

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Yeah.

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Um, and then I felt like I, I genuinely wasn't good enough, um, when I was new, but I, I feel like I, I dunno what it is, but I've, I've managed to kind of navigate that with a sort of a down to earth confidence that I'm, I know I'm okay and these are just temporary feelings rather than it's being deep rooted.

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Yeah.

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So I feel lucky in that sense.

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Yeah.

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I think that's, I think that's probably the way I experienced it as well.

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It's kind of that it, it it's those moments, it's that kind of next challenge that you're taking something on at a different sort of phase in your career and trying to set yourself that you can do that for sure.

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I think that's where it comes from for me too.

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But you, you've always worked on really good stuff, right?

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So when, when I was talent managing after I have, I directed and had my kid.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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You have.

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Okay.

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You have, well tell, well, I actually, no, let's pick up on that.

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What have you worked on that, um, that you have not been proud of?

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Um,

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No, I I, I,

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Now you don't wanna tell me.

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Look, I'd rephrase that, right?

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I think I, I've done my time on kind of making mistakes and being able to make mistakes.

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I was really fortunate enough to be, and actually probably didn't really, really appreciate it at the time, but I think I was pretty young when I got given my first directing job.

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I think I might have been in my early twenties.

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Um, and that was a show we did for Bravo about like gangs around the world with Goldie doing the links.

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And I went to Chicago and LA and like, film these like little gorilla docs about gangs in these cities around the world.

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Uh, shot it.

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And then I cut them all, edited them all.

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And God, I mean, is that the most exposing place to kind of learn how to do your job?

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Um, which, you know, taught me everything.

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Like, God, why didn't I shoot it?

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And this way it just, you know, taught me so much about, um, you know, just how to construct a piece of television because you never get the training for it.

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Right.

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But it was in a place that was probably quite safe.

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'cause it was on a, you know, it was on a channel called Bravo.

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The, the budgets are super low.

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Um, so you could experiment, you could safe place to make mistakes, I'd say.

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So I think this was in the era before, um, the edit producer became a thing, right?

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And I've always had a thing of like how, how I've just never quite got how the role of an edit producer works, because that the, that's where you learn.

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You go off and you shoot something, whether you're shooting it yourself or you've shot it with a crew, but you are there on location, you are making those decisions, and then you're taking into the cutting room, and that's where you're just gonna learn everything about what to do, what not to do.

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And I just, I've always felt in that period when you've got these directors who are so talented and not getting the opportunity to cut their own material, I think that was, I think that was a sort of training mistake that the industry has gone through.

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So, you know, we're, we're always really keen, we've always been quite keen at, at Curious, when we can really influence those kind of decisions that people that produce or direct or like are in charge of, you know, the, the, the creation of these shows that should get to cut them.

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Yeah.

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I think I made stuff that was, yeah, probably considered quite low rent, but I think it enabled me to, you know, put the hard yards in, learn, learn the craft more, learn it on the job, uh, in a place that was not ultimately over exposing.

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And I look back now and I, I think how grateful I was for that, those opportunities.

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And I don't think they actually come up that much anymore.

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And it's potentially an industry issue.

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Um, yeah, because where are these training grounds, you know, where are the lower rent channels, um, where you learn and, you know, people enter the industry wanting to make your Amy Winehouse film, for example, but it's never gonna happen straight off the bat, is that you've got to go somewhere and make stuff and make mistakes.

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And, but, but I think people get worried about what credits are on their cv, um, probably too much nowadays.

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Unless it's a fault of hiring managers being too snobby about what's on someone's cv, actually.

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Yeah.

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I mean, look, that would always be advice I'd give to any sort of up and coming producer or director is just, you know, get the, get the experience in there, get, you know, go shoot your own stuff.

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I mean, it's also different now as well, because also you can just go make, you can go film something, you can go cut something on your phone.

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I mean, my kids have messing around with that sort of stuff that we could never have done, you know, 25 years ago in that way.

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But yeah, just getting there make be in a safe place to learn your craft and, and, and make mistakes.

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For sure.

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So yeah, so when I was, so I directed in the, moved into Talent, and that's when we met.

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Um, and I always think of things on your cv, like the island with their grills, um, and an hour to Save your life.

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Yeah.

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And yeah, you were making, well, you know, in essence were, they were documentary and content, albeit with a kind of constructed format, uh, as well as, you know, straight docs.

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But I wonder whether, how, how easy was it for you to find those jobs or the jobs that you really wanted to work on?

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Oh,

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I mean, it wasn't easy because you, you're weighing up like you want to do jobs that you like really want to do.

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Um, I think this has all sort of led led me to where, where I am today.

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But you kind of, I think the longer you go on in tele and you realize how hard it is, you wanna make programs or be involved in programs you sort of believe in, but also you, you need to earn a living.

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Right.

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Um, I don't think I was ever very good at, uh, I will just sit around for a couple of months and just wait for the right project to come along.

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I've always been, I like to be busy.

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Uh, I like to be moving, I like to be thinking.

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So kind of just like, you know, sitting around and waiting for the next thing to come along.

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I was never very good at, uh, good at that.

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So I think it was always quite difficult to find stuff that I wanted to make.

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But, you know, keep working

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In a sec.

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I think it's a precarious career, right?

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That you can spend years trying to get everything right.

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Delivering the, the very best shows.

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But I think there's always that fear that if one goes wrong, that's it.

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This

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Is the Imposter club, and this is my chat with Dov Freedman.

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I think a lot of people will identify with that issue or that challenge of choosing and going, shall I take this because it's low rent?

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Or, um, it's not what I want to do.

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Or it's, you know, it's make, it's pigeonholing me more into entertainment and I don't wanna do that, but I also need to pay the rent or mortgage or whatever.

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Yeah.

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Um, can you remember any times when you were freelancing that you thought, this is too hard, I'm just gonna jack it in and get a stable job?

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Oh, God, yeah.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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So when I got my first, like, straight out of university, it was, um, a researching position on A B V C Docus soap back in the day.

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And I moved down to London and slept, slept on the floor with my brother's flat.

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I just thought, well, this is all right.

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This is easy, isn't it?

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And I got whatever it was, like a six month contract, and I just thought, well, I'll finish that contract, so I'll just get another job.

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But no, it didn't work like that.

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So I think when that finished, uh, yeah, I was outta work for, for quite a while and just didn't know, didn't know how to navigate the freelance world.

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How do you speak to people?

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How do you look for jobs?

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How do you make connections?

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Um, so that, that was very tough.

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You know, London's not a cheap place to be, and I probably came quite close to moving back up north a few times.

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But then you learn, you learn how to sort of play the game a bit more and kind of make connections and speak to people and get on people's radar.

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But yeah, I think I was very naive when I got that first job and just thought it'd be really easy and I'll just go from job to job to job.

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But it does not work like that.

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As we all know, being a freelancer is really, really hard, I think.

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And, um, you know, especially over the last couple of years and what the industry's going through, uh, right now is, is really difficult.

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And I think the older you get and the more responsibility you have, it's even harder.

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So, um, yeah.

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You know, Charlie, my partner's also been a freelancer for a long time, so I think of a lot of the ways that we think about, we try to operate the company, come from thinking about freelancers when we can, because we've both done it for so long, and it's hard.

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It is really hard.

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Um, I wanna come back to the reasons as well why you set up curious in a bit.

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We're sort of getting there.

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Yeah.

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So I'll, and we'll talk more about that.

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Okay.

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Um, but then as a director, and as an sp uh, which actually I think is the core of our, our listeners here on this podcast, um, talk to me a bit about how those moments where you still felt, even though you had a lot of experience, that you hadn't got it right or that someone else, whether it was yourself or your commissioner or your boss was doubting you.

247

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Because there is quite a lot in your story I know about what fuelled you to set up your own business.

248

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I think, I mean, you, you, you've referenced the island.

249

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That was probably one of the scariest shows I've ever been involved with.

250

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'cause that was, that was, I mean, at one point I was like, it wasn't so much, I hope we're gonna come back with 16 episodes of Tell.

251

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It's like, I hope we're gonna come back with all the contributors in one piece.

252

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Um, oh God, <laugh>, you know, they were out on an island, I think it was, I think that season we did two weeks longer than they'd ever done before.

253

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You know, there was incidents where some of the trackers went offline and the rescue crews had to go over in a storm to get them.

254

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There's going out on a raft when they're all really malnourished and getting caught in a, a pretty bad riptide.

255

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And, you know, that, that show I felt quite, quite on edge.

256

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I mean, we were out there for two months.

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I don't think I've slept very well for two months.

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And I think, I think it's a precarious career, right?

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That you can spend years, uh, trying to get everything right.

260

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Delivering the, the very best shows, making all the best contacts.

261

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But I think there's always that fear that if one goes wrong, that's it.

262

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Or if one relationship falls apart and someone decides to talk bad of you, that's it.

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So everything you might have spent 8, 9, 10 years building that one project goes wrong for whatever reason.

264

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And that's it.

265

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And you know, I know I've had moments where, uh, which had a first viewing with a broadcaster on a show that kind of cuts ended and there's sort of horrendous silence for like five seconds.

266

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It feels like an eternity.

267

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And oh God, yeah.

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Someone stood up and going, I really regret, regret commissioning this.

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And then you are like, that moment is, ah, that's it.

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Your heart drops.

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I'm probably never gonna work again.

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And I'm sure that's not the case, but I think as a freelancer, you, you just feel more exposed to those, those ones that don't go well.

273

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Um, and again, that's probably what makes it quite a precarious position to be in.

274

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And, um, I think that the sort of bigger projects you take on, they're sort of the, the stakes are always higher, aren't they?

275

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I can really relate to that, and I know every freelancer will.

276

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It feels like you're only as good as your last reference.

277

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Totally.

278

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Um, can we talk about diversity and inclusion?

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Sure.

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Because do you, you are Jewish.

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Yeah.

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And, you know, happy to talk about it.

283

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Um, do you cite it as, um, you being from an underrepresented group?

284

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Well, I didn't use to, but the more I think about it and the more diversity's on rightly so, become a kind of conversation in the industry, there's definitely, and the more you think about it, there's definitely a, um, a feeling that it's perhaps not recognized as, uh, being a minority group in, in the same way as others are.

285

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How do you feel about that?

286

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Well, I think it's something that should be talked about.

287

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I mean, you know, there's, I think someone like David Bede or David Rich has, has, you know, has got a much clearer kind of intellectual argument around Tuesday count than I've got.

288

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But I I, I definitely recognize it in the industry over recent years when we're having conversations about diversity and Judaism.

289

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Like literally not, not counting, you know, whether it's kind of going through who the diverse members of a, a production team.

290

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And you know, me as an exec is, is Jewish and comes from a minority, uh, background.

291

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It's like, well, not, not that, not that form of diver diversity that that doesn't count.

292

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You know, I've literally had those kind of conversations and we've had other conversations around when we were trying to set the company up and, you know, maybe look looking for bits of investment.

293

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And at the time, we weren't the right fit because we weren't, uh, they were looking for diverse companies.

294

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Uh, and that was someone Jewish that told me that.

295

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Right.

296

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So it's just something that's become a bit more, I wouldn't say it's something that's kind of I've thought about throughout my whole career, but just in the last five, six years and, and soon, so we set up curious, it's done.

297

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You know, and diversity's become more of a focus and important thing.

298

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I think it's something that I've just started to question a bit more and, uh, try and have conversations about, you know, why it's probably not a plus as a minority.

299

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Well, for, for me, the, the whole, the whole push towards diversity in television is to do with building richly diverse teams from all walks of life.

300

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Right?

301

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Um, and, and, and, but the reas the reason for that is because people from different, uh, ethnic minorities, disabled people, yeah.

302

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Um, people from the lgbtq plus community all have a, a certain life experience that is rattling around their head, that is presenting itself in their social lives, in their personal lives all the time.

303

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So when they come to work, they're going to have a different perspective and that different perspective in a brainstorm or when on the phone to a contributor.

304

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Yeah.

305

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Or, um, when influencing a decision about the team is going to, um, bring something positive and good or at least a different angle.

306

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And, and, and that is then going to reflect on the productions, on the, on the program, on that, on your output.

307

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So that's why I think it's important.

308

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Well,

309

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I mean, you know, I experienced anti-Semitism growing up and my, my kids in London, uh, went to a Jewish primary school that has security guards outside it.

310

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And in the last few years, last 10 years when there's been incidents like the Charlie have dare attacks, my kids have had to do, um, terrorism drills, like lockdown drills in the school, what would happen if an armed attacker would storm the school?

311

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And that's kind of quite normalized for them as well.

312

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So, yeah.

313

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You know, it's definitely around.

314

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And, um, I think in the early days when, when we'd started the company being a bit more like, oh, well, let's not, we can't push the fact that being Jewish should count the diversity.

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But I think, you know, the, the the the sort of, um, longer we go on a bit more established, we've become, we're we're, we're, we're sort of more open to having those conversations with broadcasters.

316

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So talk to me about why you set up curious, you were freelancing in successful roles over years.

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It's a huge risk to set up a business, you know, certainly sort of five years ago.

318

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Why did you do it?

319

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Um, you know, I'd been, I think we were in a, I was in a space where you've been working in tally for a long time.

320

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You wanna work on the best projects you can work on, you wanna work around the best people.

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And I just felt I wasn't, we, I wasn't in the conversations for the best projects, uh, the right conversations.

322

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And I was maybe, you know, certainly in a more senior role where I was trying to, uh, a business winning role as well, pitching stuff that I didn't really believe in.

323

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And I think commissioners smell that on you a mile away.

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So I think it was just to take ownership of what we were making and the space that we were making it in.

325

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I think, I think it was sort of as simple as that.

326

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And, um,

327

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So to work on the projects that you really wanted to work on effectively.

328

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Exactly.

329

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Yeah.

330

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That's quite extreme though, isn't it?

331

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Setting up your own company to, to be able to work on the projects that you feel passionately about.

332

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Yeah.

333

00:28:52,920 --> 00:29:07,920

Well, you know, I guess I wasn't getting the phone, you know, I wasn't getting called about projects that I really wanted to make and been doing it for quite a while and keep yourself sharp and keep yourself focused and knowing that you're gonna do a good job.

334

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You just wanna really believe in the projects.

335

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So I think that was, that, that was definitely a big part of it.

336

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And, you know, also having, just creating a good place with the best people to sort of work in.

337

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I think working with people with shared kind of taste, the creative taste is, is, is really important.

338

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Probably something I didn't really appreciate until, you know, the last eight, nine years, that when you don't work with someone, we share taste.

339

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It just makes it a bit more difficult.

340

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So Charlie and I have worked together for a long, long time, on and off, we'd always sort of done our best work together and we just thought, you know, our sort of schedules aligned and we just thought, let's give it a go.

341

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We gave ourselves nine months and that's what we did.

342

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That was in: 2018

343

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After this super quick message.

344

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So much of filmmaking is timing and luck.

345

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And that was so much part of our story of how we got up and running

346

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You�re part of the Imposter Club Club, the podcast where oversharing is definitely caring.

347

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Back to the episode, I know that I, I said all of the brilliant things that Curious have made in five years, and you've just said, yeah, I wasn't working on the stuff I wanted to, so I just set up a company, which makes it sound really easy.

348

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Oh, yeah.

349

00:30:38,300 --> 00:30:40,800

Um, and let's, let's face it, it, I didn't mean it to sound like that.

350

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No, but I mean, that, that's, if you, if you summarize what you've done, those are the facts as well.

351

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Yeah.

352

00:30:46,940 --> 00:30:51,760

So tell me the reality of setting up your own company.

353

00:30:52,390 --> 00:30:52,680

Well,

354

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I sort of probably didn't quite realize it at the time, but I was sort of doing the job that I've always kind of done as in making shows or sort of pitching shows, and then took on another job at the same time of building a business.

355

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So people gonna get paid, how we're gonna pay them legals, toilet paper, plumbing property, um, tax, finance, you know, just like everything.

356

00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:27,530

So, you know, it, it's kind kind of totally, totally two hats.

357

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And, and I think the biggest thing I realized quite quickly after we did it is I'd worked at a lot of companies being a freelancer, and pretty quickly I had all of a sudden had a lot more respect for all of them just to kind of, you know, get through year by year.

358

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It's tough.

359

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It is really difficult.

360

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It is really difficult.

361

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And the year after we set up, we obviously hit a pandemic, so, um, that was, uh, that was interesting.

362

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You know, there was a lot of,

363

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And did you have any funding to set it up?

364

00:31:58,790 --> 00:32:00,250

No, we bootstrapped the whole thing.

365

00:32:00,830 --> 00:32:01,650

We bootstrapped the

366

00:32:01,650 --> 00:32:01,970

Whole thing.

367

00:32:01,970 --> 00:32:06,570

So you must have gone from earning, you know, earning a decent wage as a freelancer when you're working Yeah.

368

00:32:06,630 --> 00:32:09,770

To earning nothing for the first what year or so?

369

00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:16,070

Yeah, no, I walked away from a pretty comfortable executive role at another company.

370

00:32:17,220 --> 00:32:22,920

Um, Charlie walked away from any number of shows that he could have made.

371

00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,480

I think he just won, he just made the, his Chris packing film.

372

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So yeah, we, we, yeah, we walked.

373

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Yeah, we, I think we said to ourselves and said to our partners, we'll give it.

374

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I think we worked out we could probably survive for nine months without burning anything.

375

00:32:40,300 --> 00:32:41,560

Um, so that was it.

376

00:32:41,620 --> 00:32:45,360

And if it didn't work out, we'd probably go back to sort of freelancing.

377

00:32:45,820 --> 00:32:56,190

And we were so incredibly fortunate that I think within the first week of, um, deciding we were doing it.

378

00:32:56,330 --> 00:32:59,950

So I, I finished my other job, um, left my job.

379

00:33:00,690 --> 00:33:08,350

We were introduced to a young Ladd, 18 year old Jack Sullivan who was setting up a women's football team.

380

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And we met him and we just sh started shooting this taste of tape and we showed it to the B B C.

381

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And I think within about four weeks we were in funded development and four weeks after that we had a 10 part commission for BBC three.

382

00:33:29,070 --> 00:33:29,290

Um,

383

00:33:29,430 --> 00:33:30,410

That's unheard of.

384

00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:31,210

Yeah.

385

00:33:31,210 --> 00:33:36,410

Well look, I, I don't, I don't, I don't say it like that, like we planned it in, in, in that way.

386

00:33:36,550 --> 00:33:44,380

It was completely, I mean, look, so much of filmmaking is timing and luck, and it was complete timing and luck.

387

00:33:44,540 --> 00:33:50,180

I mean, it was, when we, when we showed the taste to the beep, it was like, yeah, we, we quite like this.

388

00:33:50,230 --> 00:33:58,500

We'll think about it for a bit, but I think it was, I think it was all happening because they were, they were about to start a football season.

389

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They had like four weeks to kind of build it.

390

00:34:01,420 --> 00:34:03,900

And I was like, look, if you wanna do the story, we need to be filming it.

391

00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:09,620

And it needed, so it, it was kind of one of those time sensitive commissions, <laugh>, um, it's

392

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Quite handy that to, to force the, uh, it was the hand of the commissioner.

393

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It was really handy.

394

00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:19,540

So that was a luck element that, and the timing was, was everything.

395

00:34:19,639 --> 00:34:25,500

And we just hit on, you know, as soon as we met him, we just knew we had something.

396

00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:26,139

But yeah.

397

00:34:26,199 --> 00:34:30,540

You know, that's, that totally got us up and running and outta the blocks.

398

00:34:30,940 --> 00:34:33,139

I mean, and at that moment we had nothing.

399

00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:42,830

We had, um, we had a laptop and we had a camera and four weeks later it was like, God, we need to have a show on air in six weeks.

400

00:34:42,889 --> 00:34:44,190

We, we, we didn't have anything.

401

00:34:45,090 --> 00:34:46,310

Um, and so, and

402

00:34:46,310 --> 00:34:47,389

No kind of infrastructure,

403

00:34:48,100 --> 00:34:48,590

Nothing.

404

00:34:48,810 --> 00:34:49,550

We didn't have anything.

405

00:34:50,170 --> 00:34:51,190

Did you have a bank account?

406

00:34:51,750 --> 00:34:56,750

<laugh>?

407

00:34:52,330 --> 00:35:07,710

We got a bank account very quickly, <laugh>, uh, and I re I do, I do remember, I'm probably one of the biggest buzzes we've ever had in the last five years, is that moment where the, the, the, uh, paid development under in our bank account.

408

00:35:07,830 --> 00:35:10,790

I think it was something like 5,000 pounds, I think.

409

00:35:10,830 --> 00:35:12,270

I think there was a photograph of it somewhere.

410

00:35:12,270 --> 00:35:15,160

We were both on a pavement somewhere.

411

00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:21,210

And it was just an incredible, incredible moment, uh, that just felt, oh wow.

412

00:35:21,240 --> 00:35:26,810

Like someone's actually believed in us to, to go and make this show and deliver it and try and put it on.

413

00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:28,250

Yeah.

414

00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:28,890

I'll never forget

415

00:35:28,890 --> 00:35:28,970

That.

416

00:35:28,970 --> 00:35:30,250

Mad actually, it's so symbolic, isn't it?

417

00:35:30,250 --> 00:35:31,530

That's not, that's that's, yeah.

418

00:35:31,530 --> 00:35:32,890

That's not just the money, is it?

419

00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:33,290

It's, um,

420

00:35:33,590 --> 00:35:34,010

No, no.

421

00:35:34,010 --> 00:35:34,290

It wasn't

422

00:35:34,290 --> 00:35:37,490

The money, it's the fact that someone who's trusted you Yeah.

423

00:35:37,490 --> 00:35:39,770

And they, they are, they have faith in you.

424

00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:40,250

Yeah.

425

00:35:40,270 --> 00:35:45,010

And that, that is the beginning of your business, you know, you are above the zero <laugh>.

426

00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:46,130

Yeah, yeah.

427

00:35:46,390 --> 00:35:56,480

No, and they've got us up and running and, you know, so much of like, you know, even what, like where, where the company's based, where our office is, is is next to a post house who kind of helps us out.

428

00:35:56,500 --> 00:35:58,920

And you know, the first thing we thought is what do we need?

429

00:35:59,380 --> 00:36:00,840

It was like, we need post-production.

430

00:36:00,900 --> 00:36:02,960

That's sort of, yeah.

431

00:36:02,990 --> 00:36:07,200

Just so much part of our story of, of of, of how we got up and running.

432

00:36:07,540 --> 00:36:09,960

Um, but you know, time and luck.

433

00:36:10,220 --> 00:36:11,720

Timing and luck for sure.

434

00:36:12,260 --> 00:36:22,120

And I know you put a lot of emphasis on relationships, like you say, post-production and you know, your brilliant head of production and, um, just shaping the team around you.

435

00:36:22,380 --> 00:36:30,800

Uh, and I know you've, you've talked already through this, um, podcast about building things out of what you have experienced that wasn't so good.

436

00:36:31,030 --> 00:36:31,320

Yeah.

437

00:36:31,710 --> 00:36:35,640

What are you most proud of having done or achieved at Curious?

438

00:36:36,720 --> 00:36:39,280

I dunno, I get little shots of pride like all the time.

439

00:36:39,310 --> 00:36:56,280

Like, I even over like really little, like, you know, we, we, we had one of our core sort of team members kind of went, uh, was got on the BBC three young director scheme and made her first film last year.

440

00:36:56,860 --> 00:37:01,120

Um, that was an in, that was a really sort of proud moment.

441

00:37:01,580 --> 00:37:08,700

Um, you know, getting our first Netflix commission was hugely sort of proud moment.

442

00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:16,640

Um, decorating the Office toilet the other week finally was a really proud moment.

443

00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:22,680

<laugh>, I mean, you just have, you just have so many, there's, there's lots of so, so many facets.

444

00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:34,820

I mean, look, you know, this running your own business as well, just everything, every little thing, every little component of the company, kind of every little victory you feel and every little knock you probably feel even harder.

445

00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,540

Um, so yeah.

446

00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:38,060

Oh, for sure.

447

00:37:38,180 --> 00:37:49,820

I think, do you know what, if it is one moment, it is probably that one moment of getting offers commission of that series, because I think that was, that was the moment where we thought, God, we can probably do this.

448

00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:54,340

We, and that was probably more about proving it to ourselves more than anything.

449

00:37:54,580 --> 00:37:56,340

'cause we didn't, we didn't really know.

450

00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,420

We just thought we'd, we'd, we'd, we'd give it a punt sort of now or never.

451

00:37:59,530 --> 00:38:02,540

Because I wonder if you, if you would make that now I won't.

452

00:38:02,540 --> 00:38:07,580

Like, you know, if, if you had hadn't made that series and you'd, you know, you'd gone on to make your Yeah.

453

00:38:07,580 --> 00:38:15,820

Your single docs and your Amy and Caroline stuff and your, you know, I wonder whether you would, you would go after that idea now.

454

00:38:16,780 --> 00:38:17,660

I think we would, but you know,

455

00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:19,620

It doesn't feel very curious in a way.

456

00:38:20,420 --> 00:38:26,300

I think what we were talking about of of like being in a safe place to kind of make mistakes.

457

00:38:27,540 --> 00:38:33,740

I think probably that that was our version of it because it was BBC three because of the, the, the tone of it.

458

00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:41,640

And because we were, we, we were in this sort of monthly drop, uh, there's a bit of a meta feel about it in places as well.

459

00:38:41,780 --> 00:38:49,240

And I think we, we learned, we learned everything about running a company on that, on that first series, everything.

460

00:38:49,740 --> 00:38:55,120

And that there were, if we're talking about imposter moments, huge imposter moments on that series as well.

461

00:38:55,660 --> 00:39:09,370

You know, trying to, you know, finance conversations, budgeting conversations, trying to do an access agreement with a Premier League football club, um, you know, all those, all it all happened on that in that summer.

462

00:39:09,510 --> 00:39:14,830

And, you know, it was terrifying and definitely felt like an imposter in that that time.

463

00:39:14,970 --> 00:39:17,750

But it was also really exhilarating.

464

00:39:18,860 --> 00:39:24,470

And I remember we went for, I think we, it might have been the Green Light meeting.

465

00:39:25,510 --> 00:39:39,890

We, Charlie and I were like, you know, we were running around London, I think we had a camera with us and I was carrying the tripod and we went into, um, broadcasting house and they wouldn't let us leave the kit downstairs.

466

00:39:40,750 --> 00:39:41,610

Had to take it with us.

467

00:39:42,510 --> 00:39:46,750

So we, we walked in quite an important meeting.

468

00:39:46,750 --> 00:39:52,390

There was a couple of commissioners in there and I think it was like the sort of big sort of, you know, killer cook meeting.

469

00:39:52,970 --> 00:40:03,150

And we were like absolutely mortified that we were gonna have to walk into this meeting, like projecting ourselves as kind of company owners, business owners.

470

00:40:03,170 --> 00:40:10,990

We know exactly what we're doing and we're walking in with like camera cut our like, oh my God, this is like devastatingly embarrassing.

471

00:40:11,050 --> 00:40:17,030

We looked like a couple of total boose and we thought, you know, we're never gonna get it over the line.

472

00:40:17,250 --> 00:40:31,470

But you know what, they absolutely loved that we had just come from the shoot and we're filming it because they were like, they just got the feeling that we were gonna be absolutely all over it and we would do whatever it takes to create the best show.

473

00:40:32,130 --> 00:40:41,980

So what went from a kind of what we thought was an absolutely mortifying, embarrassing moment, you know, who knows might have got that project over the line?

474

00:40:42,060 --> 00:40:43,660

'cause we walked in with a camera and the tripod

475

00:40:44,620 --> 00:40:49,620

<laugh>.

476

00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:50,940

Do you think they also potentially thought, oh, this is gonna be really cheap because these two are both running the company?

477

00:40:51,090 --> 00:40:51,380

Well,

478

00:40:51,380 --> 00:40:51,540

Maybe

479

00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:52,620

And shooting it

480

00:40:52,790 --> 00:40:53,140

Maybe.

481

00:40:53,450 --> 00:40:53,740

Yeah.

482

00:40:53,980 --> 00:40:57,580

I mean, the first two episodes of that show were basically the taster tape that we shot.

483

00:40:57,580 --> 00:41:04,420

Because again, it had that chronological thing and it was all happening and we just had to capture it before we hadn't hired anyone.

484

00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:11,490

And yeah, so the first two episodes, uh, are Shot by Charlie, and I think I did all the sound on it, which is great.

485

00:41:11,610 --> 00:41:12,290

I mean, it was so really,

486

00:41:12,370 --> 00:41:13,050

I just love that though.

487

00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:14,370

Yeah.

488

00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:15,210

Yeah.

489

00:41:15,430 --> 00:41:21,650

And like, it is really exciting and terrifying running something yourself and nobody teaches you it.

490

00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:25,010

Like you say, you are your everything to everyone at that point.

491

00:41:25,110 --> 00:41:26,930

And you are winging it big time.

492

00:41:26,930 --> 00:41:27,410

Yeah, yeah.

493

00:41:27,590 --> 00:41:31,690

But with, with a whole, you know, bank of experience behind you.

494

00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:32,050

Yeah.

495

00:41:32,050 --> 00:41:33,600

Just not that specific one.

496

00:41:34,140 --> 00:41:36,160

And you are such a, you are a doer.

497

00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:41,080

You weren't scared to just get on and do it and, you know, embrace the fear and do it anyway.

498

00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:41,320

Yeah.

499

00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:46,280

I think there was a feeling as well with, and maybe that's why West they, we got the access.

500

00:41:46,390 --> 00:41:47,640

They were knew, we were knew.

501

00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:49,160

I think they kind of liked that.

502

00:41:49,460 --> 00:42:01,490

But there's an anarchic energy to that first series that I always, I look back on and it just reminds me of, you know, some really exhilarating times that we had in the, in, in the early days.

503

00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:04,290

They got to Wembley that seed, they got to the FA Cup final.

504

00:42:04,750 --> 00:42:05,450

That's incredible.

505

00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:05,810

Yeah,

506

00:42:05,810 --> 00:42:06,170

It was great.

507

00:42:06,190 --> 00:42:09,090

And there was a lot of parallels between what they were going through.

508

00:42:09,150 --> 00:42:15,010

And I think, uh, 'cause they were a brand new team that I put together and, and we, we, you know, we were a brand new company as well.

509

00:42:15,650 --> 00:42:15,890

I think.

510

00:42:15,970 --> 00:42:18,210

I think that's, that's just all in the tone of the show.

511

00:42:18,750 --> 00:42:19,170

Lovely.

512

00:42:19,310 --> 00:42:20,050

That's so cool.

513

00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:20,810

Okay.

514

00:42:21,070 --> 00:42:31,130

Um, what would you Dov now say to that, uh, 21 year old, uh, wannabe researcher sleeping on your brother's floor?

515

00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:31,610

Yeah.

516

00:42:32,190 --> 00:42:35,090

Uh, what do you know now that you wish you'd known then?

517

00:42:35,090 --> 00:42:36,730

Like, what would you tell the younger?

518

00:42:36,830 --> 00:42:37,050

You

519

00:42:37,740 --> 00:42:42,600

Don't be afraid to make mistakes and trust your gut.

520

00:42:43,530 --> 00:42:44,150

Boy, I like that.

521

00:42:45,370 --> 00:42:45,950

Is that too, too?

522

00:42:46,070 --> 00:42:46,430

I like that.

523

00:42:46,540 --> 00:42:48,110

Because you do, you do now.

524

00:42:48,330 --> 00:42:49,590

No, because you do now.

525

00:42:49,590 --> 00:42:49,830

Right?

526

00:42:49,850 --> 00:42:51,350

You didn't, you didn't know that then.

527

00:42:51,450 --> 00:42:52,950

And you do know that that's okay now.

528

00:42:53,140 --> 00:42:53,430

Yeah,

529

00:42:53,790 --> 00:42:55,990

I just have more confidence in going with my gut.

530

00:42:56,330 --> 00:43:04,590

Um, you know, on, on, again, you know, this, you, how many decisions do you have to make as a business owner every single day?

531

00:43:04,610 --> 00:43:08,670

And sometimes you don't quite know the answer, but you get a good gut feeling.

532

00:43:09,780 --> 00:43:10,070

Okay.

533

00:43:10,090 --> 00:43:11,870

One last thing though before I let you go.

534

00:43:12,050 --> 00:43:12,270

Dov.

535

00:43:13,170 --> 00:43:14,350

What's Dov short for?

536

00:43:15,260 --> 00:43:16,430

It's short for nothing.

537

00:43:16,540 --> 00:43:17,350

It's my full name.

538

00:43:18,310 --> 00:43:18,650

Oh, yeah.

539

00:43:18,700 --> 00:43:19,690

Where does that come from then?

540

00:43:19,690 --> 00:43:20,570

I've never heard that before.

541

00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,570

It's an Israeli name and it means bear.

542

00:43:24,610 --> 00:43:25,220

Very good.

543

00:43:25,550 --> 00:43:28,420

Thank you so much for talking to me on the Imposter Club.

544

00:43:28,420 --> 00:43:30,900

God, that I always sound presenty when I say I don't mean it.

545

00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:32,700

Oh, it's been lovely to hang out with you this morning.

546

00:43:32,750 --> 00:43:33,220

Thank you.

547

00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:34,380

No, thank you.

548

00:43:34,380 --> 00:43:35,100

Enjoyed the chat.

549

00:43:35,100 --> 00:43:35,620

Really good.

550

00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:41,540

That's it for this episode of The Imposter Club, brought to you by talented people.

551

00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:49,100

I'm Kimberly Godbolt, and it has been lovely to hang out with you while you commute slash gym slash dog walk or whatever you're doing.

552

00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:54,300

If this has struck a chord, please go ahead and share it with your friends in that closed WhatsApp group.

553

00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:56,500

I'm not in or on your social networks.

554

00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:04,100

Our aim is to reach as many fellow imposters as we can to share love and learnings and create a sense of belonging.

555

00:44:04,720 --> 00:44:09,020

And if you haven't already, follow or subscribe to the pod so you don't miss an episode drop.

556

00:44:11,750 --> 00:44:19,060

Thank you to talented people, produced and hosted by me, Kimberly Godbolt, exec producer Rosie Turner, editor Ben Mullins.

557

00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:20,060

See you later.

From Sewers to Streamers: Dov Freedman on the frustrations that fuelled him to set up Curious Films

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