My fight for a seat at the table: Netflix 'American Murder' Director Jenny Popplewell on her journey to feature doc success

Transcript

Speaker: 00:00:00

The Imposter Club is produced by talented people, staffing and headhunting company in TV production with a mission to make the industry a happier, more creatively diverse place in just a minute.

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By the end of it, I felt like a d o p without any training.

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Like, what am I doing with a full on proper camera here, shooting four K and managing four channels.

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And I felt like a one man band when I should have had an orchestra.

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This is The Imposter Club, the podcast uniting all us tv, film, and content folk secretly stressing that everyone else has its sorted.

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Except us.

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I'm Kimberly Godbolt, TV director, turn staff and company founder.

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And each episode I want you to hear the real story of a successful industry figure.

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Not the glossy announcements we usually see, but the truth of their career journey, including the bumpy bits to help you make sense of your own health warning.

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This podcast may incur whiplash from violent nodding plus an unfamiliar, but hopefully welcome feeling of belonging.

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Documentary director and executive producer Jenny Popplewell is Today's Imposter in the Club.

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If you are into your docks, it's hard to imagine a more enviable career with so much ownership of ideas and access to boot.

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Listen to this conceived, pitched, and directed American murder.

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The Family Next Door, which break the record for the most watched feature doc on Netflix at the time.

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Seen by 52 million accounts in its first 28 days.

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Conceived, pitched, produced and self shot.

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Channel four's most watched, cutting Edge, my big fact Gypsy Wedding, which led to the very long running series.

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Pitched, produced, directed and self shot Jamie Drag Queen at 16.

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Inspiration for the West End musical.

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Everybody's talking about Jamie Witch.

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I was dancing around my kitchen too this morning in Prep.

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Oh, Anna Hollywood movie starring Witch de Grant and Sarah Lancaster amongst others.

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All of this whilst bringing up a young family and negotiating her way through male dominated directing territory.

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So I'm so keen to pick apart the wise and the hows of decision making in Jenny's career.

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Staying sane, hopefully as well as successful.

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So welcome to the Imposter Club, Jenny.

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Thanks Kimberly.

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What a lovely LinkedIn review.

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<laugh> for <laugh> reading me my LinkedIn credits.

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Thank you, <laugh>.

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There

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You go.

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Just, you know, calling it right back at you.

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Thanks.

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You know, a bit of, um, kudos.

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So I like to start by asking people straight off the bat, how would you describe your relationship with imposter syndrome, if you have one at all.

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I do, or I did.

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I had a bigger relationship with the imposter syndrome early in my career.

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I'd say it's now just a little voice at the table, uh, amongst other triggering emotions that, uh, I bring in, in a sack on my back to every project <laugh> and unload <laugh> into, in, into the project with me.

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Yeah, I say it's just one of many emotions that I, I carry around, but it's got smaller.

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It's got a lot smaller as as, um, as I've progressed into the industry.

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But it doesn't mean it goes away completely.

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No.

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Okay.

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Well, we can dig into some of that and how it has changed or morphed into other things <laugh> over your career.

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Um, but said in a nutshell, like I just, did your films sound like dream roles for any director in documentary territory.

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Have you worked on things that you haven't been proud of, <laugh> and or, or things that have sort of still got you to where you are today nonetheless?

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Uh, I'd firstly say this is like a pinch me moment.

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'cause I don't think couple years ago that I would be imagining someone saying that about my, you know, effectively my CV going, is there anything you're not proud of?

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Whereas I said, there's a period there where I'd be looking at it going like, come on.

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Like, you've gotta sort this out.

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Like you wanna make important films, you wanna make talks about content.

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You're like working all hours.

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It's gotta be for something.

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You can't be making filler.

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I hate making filler tv.

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I hate just putting something out to fill, fill the airwaves to get, you know, the, the advertising revenue and make it cheap and quick and get it out and copy it content out.

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'cause actually cheap and quick just means blood, sweat, and tears and chaos.

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Our end as you're trying to do something in a six week edit and hardly any crew and cheap, quick and cheap only services, uh, the networks, it's such a drain on production, crew and staff.

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And yes, we wanna stay employed, we wanna keep making that, and often they're a great learning curve.

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But, um, when you keep doing them and you keep making them, you are, you start to feel, what's the word used, exploited, I feel you can feel exploited by it because everyone gets what they want, but you pay with your time and your effort and your energy and your, uh, mental health at the end of it.

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I think those have been the hardest ones to make.

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The ones, the ones that people think you are maybe less proud of on your CV are also the ones that often the hardest to make.

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Uh, and you give your most, sometimes you've given your most of, most of yourself, um, to make them.

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I can literally feel people nodding with their headphones in as they're hearing you say that <laugh>.

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Yeah,

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I mean, sometimes

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There are lots of things that we have to work on.

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It's a great learning curve in some ways, and you really learn to find story quickly and, and make decisions quickly.

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And, you know, it can be a challenge and it, it's fun to rise that challenge.

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But then after a period of time doing it again and again and again, you start thinking, this isn't the reason I got into television and I have, I have to do something about it.

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'cause no one's gonna be like, Hey, sit down.

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Can we give you an opportunity of a lifetime?

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And I, well, some people might have that experience.

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I didn't, I didn't have someone open the door and say, please take a seat.

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It's been a little like bashed down the door as opposed to knock gently on it.

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You have to really, I felt I had to fight.

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I had to fight for my seat at the table.

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I felt I've only just, just stopped fighting and now, yeah.

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Wow.

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The imposter syndrome moment is when people read out and say like, how are you great with your c v?

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I feel like it's only just happened in a moment.

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There is suddenly I can turn around and go, I'm proud of my career.

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So I think the imposter syn, I think the imposter syndrome is because it feels like a blink in an 18 year career that I suddenly feel like, okay, the graft is, you know, I've dragged my way up here and like, you know, it's elbowed as you roll your sleeves up and get your elbows out and you're like, you've gotta keep fighting.

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You've gotta keep, you know, you get told early in your career you're only as good as your last credit.

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And then, you know, filled with dread as you start to see a contributor drop out or the channel change their mind or edit overrun and you're filled with panic, like, oh, my reputation's in tatters now gonna hire me again.

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Or, oh, I'm gonna be making series 27 of this forever because I I'm not gonna get an opportunity elsewhere.

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But, um, yeah, I, I found that I had to create my own opportunities to rise up to the next challenge and, uh, and further my career.

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So how, well, gosh, so many questions.

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<laugh> firstly, why, why do you think you didn't have a seat at the table then for so many years?

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Well, I think it changed over the, I think our industry has seen change and I've seen it.

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And now I'm 42.

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I started in my twenties, um, 18 years in this.

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And I think I've seen technology change through the career.

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And we started off on tape.

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Our runner role literally meant taking a tape to the channel, you know, for on the tube for them to put it, put it out that night.

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Um, our industry's changed.

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We've had to evolve with technology.

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I started off as a shooter and I was shooting on what was a glorified, you know, handycam.

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By the end of it I felt like a D o P without any training.

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Like what am I doing with a full on proper camera here, shooting four K and managing four channels and of audio and like, what is, I felt like a one man band when I should have had an orchestra <laugh>.

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And I just felt, so, I felt our industry has seen change.

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So I would say that any one point, my fight has changed as well.

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I don't, I don't think my fight is just the same at the beginning as it was at the end.

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I think in the early days, and we we're going back premi to pre pre positive hires.

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I I, I heard this, I dunno if you've heard it before, but I've heard it from, from a company I started out in, uh, girls are good on the phone, boys are good with cameras.

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Wow.

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No, and that, I mean, I

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Had that sense, but

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Never heard that that was, that was, that was the role, that was the route in the companies I started.

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So you were filtered in the early days, like girls were off to be aps and researchers and you were making phone calls and trying to secure contributors and keeping them on side.

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And the boys were filtered over into kit management and camera assistant and then suddenly they're shooting and then suddenly their director.

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Now, I think that doesn't just hold back women, that holds back boys as well.

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As soon as you like, divide people in a skillset and you just cut them off from the 360 that you need to do your job.

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So you felt, you know, I, I've spoken to male directors now that said there was a period in their career where they really struggled.

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'cause the roles they needed to be taking were AP level, the people were hiring females.

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Right.

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Oh, interesting.

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And

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Then, yeah, and then, then women were saying, you know, we're producers and aps and then we can't make that step because they're like, you know, can we see your shooting?

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I need to see your show role.

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And you're like, well, I'm barely allowed to touch the camera.

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Did you want to direct?

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Yeah.

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Um, but you were only getting producer opportunities then for a certain period?

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Would say I wanted to direct for years.

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I always knew that was the role I wanted to go into.

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But, um, I stayed in each role for a long time.

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And I think I, I, looking back, I don't think that was a bad thing.

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Sometimes I've worked with people that I think it's not fair on them, it's not fair on the crew that, and I can see people who have been promoted too quickly.

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And I think, yes, I'm always there to, I, I want to help them through that, that role on that jump.

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But at the same time, it's kind of a mirror up to be like, this is why you spent, it's not one credit move up, one credit move up, one credit move up or two credits and move up.

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You learn so much in those roles and you have to be a master of your craft before you take on the next one.

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So sometimes I do.

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There's a balance,

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Isn't there?

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Yeah.

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Between like being in a role for too long because you're not getting the opportunities and you deserve them, but being in a role long enough that you, you do it thoroughly and well and are then confident enough to, to move up.

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Right.

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So did you, did you find that you weren't getting those opportunities soon enough?

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I felt

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Like, have you ever heard the saying, if you don't wanna do the washing up, don't do it.

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Well,

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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I felt like I washed up quite well as a producer and I should have probably left some soap sauce on the plate for a little bit longer.

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<laugh>, I think, I think right at the end and at that period.

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And again, that sounds quite smug, doesn't it?

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Like, hey, I was a fantastic producer and everybody wanted to keep me as a producer, but no, what it was,

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I don't think it does

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Sound smug.

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I think, I just think it sounds like people took you for granted and, and didn't want you to promote 'cause you were brilliant at what you were doing.

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I think I had a skillset set as a producer.

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I'm not, I see producers now at, on the films I work on, and they are better producers than I was when I was a producer.

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But I think at that period where TV was, when I was making television as a producer, I felt like I was quite good at finding securing access or just working hard to be like, no Stone left unturned and coming out with ideas.

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It was just always ideas how to find the next person, how to like, tell this story.

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This hasn't worked, this hasn't worked, these people aren't speaking, how are we gonna finish this?

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Well, so I felt I was an asset to a PD at that time, but, uh, unfortunately that meant that as another series or another series came round, another series came round, you had find yourself still in those roles because you did that.

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Well, you, you

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Know, when I think of you actually pre American murder, I think of you being in an exec producer job for a long time at one company, um, on lots of things, but, you know, one of which was a returning Channel five series, which was, you know, super successful.

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But I, I don't think I could have ever envisaged you as an exec then suddenly becoming, uh, this director of the most watched ever Netflix featured doc.

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I mean, how did that happen?

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The

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Reason I went back to, I'd had three children, so I'd had my first, and then just before he turned two, I gave birth to twins.

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So I had three under two, uh Oh wow.

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Yeah.

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Full, full hand hands, full, uh, heartful hands, full <laugh>.

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Um, whilst pregnant with Harvey or whilst pregnant with the twins, I was a shooting director or a a I was directing films, so working due to pregnancies.

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But then as soon as they finished, I was like, right, I just wanna be there for my children.

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I wanna focus, you know, they're only little once.

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So I knew I was gonna step away.

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I went back when the twins were one and found this role with Jonathan Stalin, where, um, I'd pitched him a i'd, okay.

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During the time the twins were little, I'd got access to people leaving a cult and started to film that as you do just

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A usual mat leave, just leave having coffee in Starbucks.

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And then, oh look, I've got access to, to

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A cult.

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So I, I started wife on that and then pitched it around.

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Then Jonathan found a director to finish that film.

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Um, and I gave him some notes on the film at the end, and he said that, I think you could be an exec.

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I think you should come work for me as an exec.

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And, you know, that was gonna be a part-time role two days a week.

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That quickly became three days a week.

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And quickly before you know it, you're working five days a week and evenings and weekends, because there was so much on, and it got hectic, you know, as a constantino you'd have periods of quiet and then full on crazy craziness.

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But that was when there were one.

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But I, I always knew that ex executing fitted my family life at that time, and it wasn't the reason I'd got into television.

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And it was fun for five years to like, support other filmmakers and learn about compliance and really see budgets and understand the process from, from that side.

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And I, I definitely think it's changed me as a director now when I really understand more of like how that side works.

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But I'd always said when the twins, when they started school, when they turned five, I'd want to return to directing.

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Um, that this was only gonna be a stop gap for me.

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And then I, um, come up with American murder.

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The boys were four and we were pitch, we were pitching it to a couple of places.

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Um, and then,

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And were you in development at that time as, as well then

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Alongside executive?

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No, I was executing.

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I just, just always just a development.

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So this is like a side hustle.

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Yeah.

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I always developed, always this ideas obsessed with like, can't, like

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The cult side hustle while you're at soft play.

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This was a, um, yeah, a story that captured you.

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Why do you think you felt so personally passionate about it, to do so much extra work on it and get it through?

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You know, did you have your own agenda as well because you wanted to direct it?

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Actually didn't.

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I didn't actually want to, so I didn't realize that I was gonna direct that film.

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I was just hiring a team.

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So I'd, hi, I'd hired Simon Barker, incredible ed editor, um, and just gathering a team and had put forward some names for the director and the, the net, you know, Netflix were asking to keep thinking.

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And then suddenly I was like, wait, realizing this was gonna start in September and my boys were starting school in September.

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00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:56,320

I was suddenly like, hold on this, this is it, this is, this is the film.

212

00:14:56,430 --> 00:14:58,160

This is, this is the one I should go back.

213

00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:00,160

And I, I could see it so clearly in my head.

214

00:15:00,420 --> 00:15:03,560

So then just suddenly felt like, actually I've handed too many away.

215

00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:05,920

I felt like there were films I've also come up with that then I didn't direct.

216

00:15:05,940 --> 00:15:08,920

And you suddenly feel like I'm never gonna have that hit again.

217

00:15:08,940 --> 00:15:10,720

I'm not you, you're not gonna have that success again.

218

00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:13,720

And I handed that, that became somebody else's baby, somebody else's project.

219

00:15:13,910 --> 00:15:15,240

It's like giving something up for adoption.

220

00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:19,320

You're just something like, hold on, I've just given this away and this became a big hit.

221

00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:23,440

And it's a big hit because they made it and it's how they vision it, and you can't take credit for their film.

222

00:15:23,620 --> 00:15:30,240

Of course, at the same time I've done that unless, and I was like, actually, I just, something niggling, he said like, don't give this one away.

223

00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:31,400

Like, keep hold of this one.

224

00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:33,120

Like, you believe in this one, keep hold of it.

225

00:15:34,740 --> 00:15:36,280

You're not going to want to miss this.

226

00:15:36,950 --> 00:15:44,400

I've talked to people now and they, they tell you horror stories of projects they've worked on where execs are screaming and shouting and camera men are being mean, and a director's been rude.

227

00:15:44,540 --> 00:15:48,200

So when you feedback like, oh, that's not worked, what they hear is, you're failing again.

228

00:15:48,300 --> 00:15:49,400

You shit, you're fucked up.

229

00:15:56,970 --> 00:16:00,070

You are listening to the Imposter Club and I'm talking to Jenny

230

00:16:00,180 --> 00:16:00,670

Popplewell.

231

00:16:03,650 --> 00:16:03,870

Did

232

00:16:03,870 --> 00:16:05,070

You have to convince Netflix?

233

00:16:05,260 --> 00:16:10,150

Like, did, did you have to do any work to show them how you would direct?

234

00:16:10,450 --> 00:16:10,670

Um,

235

00:16:11,110 --> 00:16:13,790

I, I don't know behind the scenes what was going on.

236

00:16:14,050 --> 00:16:20,390

Um, I can imagine they weren't high fiving going, yes, but Jenny Popplewell to direct this woo pop the champagne.

237

00:16:20,510 --> 00:16:28,510

I think, I imagine they probably want to keep close eye on me for the first couple of months just to, you know, in that first cut and probably just see how it goes.

238

00:16:28,870 --> 00:16:28,950

Probably.

239

00:16:29,190 --> 00:16:37,950

I think it was really good of them to give me that opportunity and that chance to not just say, no, you're not gonna do it and we're gonna go with an experienced director and you can be a, you know, continue your role Atec producer.

240

00:16:38,010 --> 00:16:47,850

Or like, the fact that I said, no, I really want to do this and I've been a director just not in this space, um, forever grateful that, that they gave me that opportunity.

241

00:16:48,350 --> 00:17:04,848

But I do think you directing that for the first time as of, you know, never having done a feature doc or, you know, retrospective storytelling or not evidenced it to a global streamer is a fantastic example as to why we shouldn't.

242

00:17:04,950 --> 00:17:13,490

And hiring managers, streamers, bosses shouldn't just always go for the person who's got exactly the right credits.

243

00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:15,650

Because look what you did with it.

244

00:17:15,710 --> 00:17:26,848

You brought a take that was totally yours influenced by your passion in it and your own ideas, and probably fed in by you being a mom lived experience.

245

00:17:26,990 --> 00:17:29,050

You know how you might tell that story, I don't know.

246

00:17:29,150 --> 00:17:39,450

But, you know, just, just going with someone because they've had, they've done a very similar thing before, should not be the go-to in my opinion.

247

00:17:40,590 --> 00:17:43,570

Uh, firstly also can't say the successes.

248

00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:44,610

It's lays at my feet.

249

00:17:44,650 --> 00:18:06,120

I would say yes, I had the initial idea and had a vision in air quotes here, um, but massively, massively spoiled by an insanely good editor, Simon Barker, and then, you know, Johnny Taylor and Zainab and Kate and that their notes that came in, you know, there's six rounds of notes and each time you're like, oh, yes, or, or you're question challenged like, this isn't working, how do you, you know, that it's so collaborative.

250

00:18:06,120 --> 00:18:12,600

And I don't think people realize how collaborative it has to be to, to, to bring those films up to that standard.

251

00:18:12,710 --> 00:18:15,160

Like you have an, it's, it's such a like, tag team.

252

00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:15,840

You have an idea.

253

00:18:15,900 --> 00:18:21,880

You, you present something, someone else questions something, you change it, you cha sometimes it, it doesn't work and you move back again.

254

00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,880

But, but you've got the time to do that as you go back and forth until your final product.

255

00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:26,160

Yeah,

256

00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:26,360

That's

257

00:18:26,360 --> 00:18:26,520

Amazing.

258

00:18:26,940 --> 00:18:28,440

Is the best it can be.

259

00:18:28,700 --> 00:18:35,200

And if I handed in the film that I can't in the first 10 weeks versus what it was 10 weeks later, like, that would've been what I would've made.

260

00:18:35,260 --> 00:18:36,960

And this is the collaboration.

261

00:18:37,060 --> 00:18:40,200

So I think you have to just realize it's, you can't do it on your own.

262

00:18:40,820 --> 00:18:55,480

So in that role then, that you had elbows out, got yourself into that edit to cut your passion project with your vision, were there moments there where you thought, fuck, I can't, I can't do this.

263

00:18:56,150 --> 00:18:57,160

This is really hard

264

00:18:59,100 --> 00:18:59,720

On that one.

265

00:18:59,780 --> 00:19:17,440

Do you know what I felt that that's one that I've always, I think because I saw it from the beginning and really knew what we were gonna do, I think even when there was a challenge or something that was difficult, we had hard notes where a section really wasn't working and we, you know, we could spend four weeks cutting three minutes and we could spend, you know, four weeks cut on the other, the rest of the film.

266

00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:22,480

Like, you know, so it's, it's not proportionate as to the time on screen as to how long you can spend focusing on one section.

267

00:19:22,940 --> 00:19:29,960

So I think for that one, just because I believed in it so much and was determined to do it, I don't, I, I felt like my fighting spirit was on that.

268

00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:32,880

I felt like that just kept me being like, that was, I was very can do on that one.

269

00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:41,800

I think there's other times where you are hand, I remember this at the beginning of my, of my career, you're handed a project from a development team and they're like, this has been commissioned.

270

00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:48,280

You start, and on day one you realize it's been oversold and you're about to under-deliver and you're just like, oh no.

271

00:19:48,940 --> 00:19:51,040

And there's those moments where you're literally like, oh.

272

00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:55,720

And it's so hard not to be the pessimist and shoot the messenger and being like, guys, this is never gonna happen.

273

00:19:55,790 --> 00:19:57,080

This is, we can't do this.

274

00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:58,760

This organization won't be involved.

275

00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:00,840

Those contributors said they won't be on camera.

276

00:20:01,030 --> 00:20:03,920

Like you can find all the reasons why it can't be done.

277

00:20:03,940 --> 00:20:06,720

And I think there's definitely times that we come home and go like, what am I doing?

278

00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:07,320

I give up.

279

00:20:07,430 --> 00:20:09,040

Like, this is insane.

280

00:20:09,890 --> 00:20:15,790

And then actually sometimes when it does come around and at the end of that program, you've somehow managed to pull off content and it, and it's worked.

281

00:20:15,790 --> 00:20:22,390

Sometimes you could be, you just have to relish in that moment and just be like, wow, that really never nearly ha didn't, you know, it didn't nearly happen.

282

00:20:23,210 --> 00:20:38,910

But I think is it mindset, is it chance of now I say like TV gods are smiling, there's times where they definitely have it in for you and it's just like, you know, you have a week of like content being pulled because legals or dropout or lost footage or like some, you know, it's just one thing.

283

00:20:38,910 --> 00:20:42,830

It's like it doesn't rain, it pauses, it's just like one thing after another and you're just like, I can't take anymore.

284

00:20:43,490 --> 00:20:49,880

Um, and then you can just suddenly have loads of like, almost like lucky breaks and you just think like, is this luck?

285

00:20:50,340 --> 00:20:51,240

Is it the right team?

286

00:20:51,820 --> 00:20:52,920

Is it just circumstance?

287

00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:54,440

Have we had our fair share of bad luck?

288

00:20:54,470 --> 00:21:02,840

Like, so I guess you just have to focus on when it is going well, just appreciate that it's going well because you've certainly ridden enough storms to know that this, that they don't always run smoothly.

289

00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:04,210

Yeah.

290

00:21:05,090 --> 00:21:18,200

I mean, do you feel now like you've made it, that you're not worried anymore about your next gig or, um, making something that doesn't work or burning out?

291

00:21:18,660 --> 00:21:18,880

No,

292

00:21:19,620 --> 00:21:19,840

No.

293

00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:20,560

I wouldn't say that.

294

00:21:20,580 --> 00:21:22,280

I'd say, I was talking to someone about this the other day.

295

00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:26,120

I say it's something, it feels a bit like second album, uh, fear.

296

00:21:26,550 --> 00:21:28,160

Like you feel like you've had a hit now.

297

00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:33,120

So everyone's like, well now your next one has to be the, like, suddenly this is, is it a bar you set yourself?

298

00:21:33,260 --> 00:21:34,760

Is it only you keeping it in check?

299

00:21:34,820 --> 00:21:36,800

Are your peers looking at you going, well that was a flop.

300

00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:37,720

Why are you working on that?

301

00:21:38,390 --> 00:21:42,810

So I think, or oh, she was, that was clearly other people that were helping her make that film.

302

00:21:42,830 --> 00:21:45,770

So it was, she just got a lucky break and she rode their coattails.

303

00:21:45,770 --> 00:21:48,650

Like, you, you, and they're the inner voice and you just think, I don't think about that.

304

00:21:48,810 --> 00:21:51,450

I don't think that of anyone else in the industry.

305

00:21:51,910 --> 00:21:55,170

So you know that these little voices, and that's what I say about the imposter syndrome.

306

00:21:55,170 --> 00:21:56,370

It's not necessarily imposter syndrome.

307

00:21:56,370 --> 00:22:04,690

It's a whole chorus of voices, which is like your own self-doubt in other ways that chirp in and unreasonably you can be unreasonably critical of yourself.

308

00:22:05,310 --> 00:22:07,690

Um, and you just think, why am I doing that?

309

00:22:07,690 --> 00:22:10,610

And I think that's just something creative people do because that is our work.

310

00:22:10,630 --> 00:22:13,250

You put yourself into work, you present it for the world.

311

00:22:13,310 --> 00:22:20,410

And any criticism of that of which happens in our industry from the moment the project starts until, until delivery, that's gonna be notes.

312

00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:21,890

There's gonna be things that aren't working.

313

00:22:21,890 --> 00:22:29,410

People have disagreements, like you are putting yourself out there to receive, uh, rejection and criticism.

314

00:22:29,870 --> 00:22:32,610

But it's just how you have to just have a, a hard skin.

315

00:22:32,610 --> 00:22:37,090

You have to just embrace it and realize the criticism and the rejection isn't, uh, about you.

316

00:22:37,090 --> 00:22:38,410

It's not like you are terrible.

317

00:22:38,470 --> 00:22:39,450

You can't do your job.

318

00:22:39,510 --> 00:22:40,210

Who thinks you should?

319

00:22:40,210 --> 00:22:41,450

And I think that's imposter syndrome.

320

00:22:41,450 --> 00:22:47,850

It's where you take criticism as of a product, as personal attack on your ability to do your job.

321

00:22:48,190 --> 00:22:53,690

And it's not, you've got that job and you've had those experience and you know, and they know you can do the job, the criticism.

322

00:22:53,690 --> 00:22:56,330

And that is about the project and it's about enhancing and improving it.

323

00:22:56,370 --> 00:22:57,170

'cause it's their project too.

324

00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:01,730

They're the commissioner, they're that your exec, it's their, it's not just your work, it's their reputation.

325

00:23:01,730 --> 00:23:02,330

It's their project.

326

00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:03,530

They all want to succeed.

327

00:23:03,530 --> 00:23:06,050

They're all helping you to make your project better.

328

00:23:06,190 --> 00:23:06,810

So yes.

329

00:23:06,870 --> 00:23:24,650

So it's, it's almost that you have to separate that out very clearly within yourself and for other people and go, okay, this is my portrayal of it, but in order for it to be the best it can be, I need to accept the feedback from others about the project, not about me as a person.

330

00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:25,010

Yeah.

331

00:23:25,010 --> 00:23:26,410

Being rubbish at my job.

332

00:23:26,410 --> 00:23:27,130

Yeah, for example.

333

00:23:27,410 --> 00:23:28,450

I think you can be very triggered.

334

00:23:28,450 --> 00:23:30,330

And also you just have to remember you've got your colleagues as well.

335

00:23:30,330 --> 00:23:47,240

We've all come from different experiences and you, you know, I, I talk to people now and they, they tell you horror stories of projects they've worked on where execs are screaming and shouting and camera men are being mean and a director's been rude and there's drops happening, you know, and they're coming to the next project with that baggage and you don't know what they're coming with.

336

00:23:47,500 --> 00:23:49,280

So when you feedback like, oh, that's not worked.

337

00:23:49,420 --> 00:23:50,800

Oh, in future can you do?

338

00:23:51,220 --> 00:23:55,320

And you've said in future can you make sure that you add this blah.

339

00:23:55,340 --> 00:23:58,640

You know, you give them a steer, what they hear is you're failing again.

340

00:23:58,700 --> 00:23:59,720

You shit, you're fucked up.

341

00:24:00,420 --> 00:24:01,440

And that's not that.

342

00:24:01,540 --> 00:24:06,760

And that doesn't mean you need to be gentler in how you, you are asking your advice.

343

00:24:06,870 --> 00:24:11,600

It's just, uh, being aware that in your peer set, we have all had different experiences.

344

00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:13,000

We've all come from different jobs.

345

00:24:13,420 --> 00:24:15,640

And some of us had a really tough time recently.

346

00:24:16,700 --> 00:24:20,000

Um, for example, literally like just weeks ago, perhaps they're just recovering.

347

00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,160

Some people are quite triggered from their last productions.

348

00:24:22,620 --> 00:24:30,140

And I think, um, the imposter syndrome there is of course you're gonna take it personally because it keeps happening to you.

349

00:24:30,140 --> 00:24:33,220

People keep, and someone can have, have made the job personal.

350

00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:37,140

So rather than, um, this contributor's dropped out, it's something, why didn't you keep them?

351

00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:38,540

Why didn't you check on?

352

00:24:38,540 --> 00:24:40,500

Why didn't, it's, it is all very, you, you, you.

353

00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:45,500

So do you think a lot of the, um, imposter syndrome is, is fed by blame culture?

354

00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:45,940

Mm-hmm.

355

00:24:45,940 --> 00:24:46,180

Mm-hmm.

356

00:24:46,220 --> 00:24:51,220

<affirmative>.

357

00:24:46,690 --> 00:24:46,980

Yeah,

358

00:24:47,180 --> 00:25:00,660

I think it sounds like that, doesn't it, that if you're constantly not being supported by your managers or bosses and blamed for things, then that does make you doubt your ability, which, like you say, you are then carrying about from to the next level.

359

00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:07,100

But, but also actually perhaps you're not getting enough constructive criticism or actual feedback to do it better next time.

360

00:25:07,100 --> 00:25:13,380

Therefore you are repeating the same mistake again and again, which is then gonna get you or knock your confidence when people call it out.

361

00:25:13,500 --> 00:25:16,900

I think when your confidence is shot, it's really hard to rebuild it and to stay strong again.

362

00:25:16,900 --> 00:25:25,420

And then it just becomes this almost self-fulfilling prophecy like keeps happening and you get in a cycle and then, and then you become what people can say about you.

363

00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:32,300

So I think it's not just there's a blame culture, it's also there's not enough like support when things do go well, you know, you, everyone will go great.

364

00:25:32,300 --> 00:25:34,060

It rated well done and you're onto the next project.

365

00:25:34,060 --> 00:25:37,140

You have like five seconds and a wrap party if you're lucky to celebrate.

366

00:25:37,140 --> 00:25:38,900

They're like, oh my God, we pulled it off anyway.

367

00:25:38,910 --> 00:25:39,940

Where are we with the release?

368

00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:48,540

You know, like suddenly you're on the next project and actually you could spend, you know, six months on a project and four months 'em could have been hard graft with lots of like meetings about what went wrong and why.

369

00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,500

And then a 10 minute email at the end where everyone said, well done guys.

370

00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:52,580

We got a guardian review.

371

00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,100

You know, and that <laugh> just like, it could be all, all stick and no carrot.

372

00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:09,500

And I think that if you're in a, in a blame culture environment is one side that can feed into imposter syndrome because you can take it personally, but then also never hearing when you've done a good job and never hearing, wow, you've someone pulling you, it's really important to your peers.

373

00:26:09,500 --> 00:26:12,140

They're a part of your team and you are all helping create this product.

374

00:26:12,250 --> 00:26:23,300

They're, you know, leaving their family at weekends, they're missing weddings and events and organize, you know, family time or friend time, you know, personal time to, to, to finish this film with you.

375

00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:29,500

Um, production coordinators, production managers, your lawyer, like everybody is working onto this.

376

00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:34,940

And when something has worked out and that, you know, your archive producers found something incredible, don't just go, oh, they've got it.

377

00:26:34,940 --> 00:26:37,460

And then you talk in the edit and you're like, they've done it and that's it.

378

00:26:37,460 --> 00:26:38,900

And the, it's a thankless task.

379

00:26:38,970 --> 00:26:40,300

Like come back and say, flip.

380

00:26:40,670 --> 00:26:41,900

Where, where did you find that?

381

00:26:41,900 --> 00:26:42,820

Oh my God, that's amazing.

382

00:26:42,820 --> 00:26:43,580

You're incredible.

383

00:26:43,620 --> 00:26:48,360

How did you and listen to 'em for five minutes as they tell you they'd knocked on summer's door and found it in the basement.

384

00:26:48,360 --> 00:27:01,280

Like, just acknowledge when other people in your team have done a really good job because you know, that three weeks ago they were getting it in the, in the neck because something they said had cleared, never delivered, and it's been lost and they haven't got the master.

385

00:27:01,340 --> 00:27:02,600

And you know, it's all gone wrong.

386

00:27:02,700 --> 00:27:08,240

So all your peers are also hearing the same negative voice that I think that fees

387

00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:08,640

Master.

388

00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:13,920

And what does it cost to, to be supportive and positive in the right places?

389

00:27:13,970 --> 00:27:14,320

Right?

390

00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,720

It costs nothing and it means everything.

391

00:27:16,940 --> 00:27:21,440

And especially when you're moving around as a freelancer, thankly all the time.

392

00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:32,000

I, I can remember the people who, who genuinely took the time to thank me, um, after a difficult project or after something that had gone wrong.

393

00:27:32,620 --> 00:27:36,560

Um, and, you know, stayed in touch with them and always wanted to work with them again.

394

00:27:36,580 --> 00:27:49,000

And then I can certainly remember the people who were really not supportive and were a nightmare and dented my confidence because I, to this day, I wouldn't, I wouldn't work with them again even if they offered me an amazing project.

395

00:27:49,340 --> 00:27:55,440

So I do think it's, you know, you have to be careful and respectful, um, on your way around.

396

00:27:55,880 --> 00:28:06,160

I mean, what about as, as a, as a boss, when you're leading a, a project, whether that's as a director I suppose, or as an exec and you're sort of in a position of power, does it feel lonely?

397

00:28:08,340 --> 00:28:18,760

Uh, I think in those positions you've got some things that people are, you know, there's, there's things that people are aware of you and how you're doing.

398

00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:23,360

And have you, you know, sorry guys, I know you had to work late, you know, are you okay with the notes when you are on holiday?

399

00:28:23,360 --> 00:28:24,280

People are very aware of you.

400

00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:32,400

And at the same time you are aware that other team members, people haven't noticed that they're not on an email or that they're, um, that they're on holiday.

401

00:28:32,500 --> 00:28:34,800

And you know, some people are like messaging going, why aren't you replying?

402

00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:35,760

They're like, I'm on holiday.

403

00:28:36,340 --> 00:28:40,400

You know, you, you can, you can be aware that you can stand out and suddenly become important.

404

00:28:40,420 --> 00:28:43,600

And visually people know your presence on a film.

405

00:28:43,740 --> 00:28:50,880

And I think sometimes you can feel guilty about that because you remember what it was like when nobody gave two hoots about the fact you were on your 16 day in a row.

406

00:28:51,020 --> 00:28:52,640

You're like, guys really need a day off.

407

00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:53,080

And they're like, really?

408

00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:54,760

When did you have you not had a day off?

409

00:28:55,340 --> 00:29:04,100

Um, I think those, those roles, uh, uh, so I think this not lonely as such.

410

00:29:04,180 --> 00:29:09,500

I think you're aware that you are treated differently and as you're treated differently, you didn't make yourself get treated differently.

411

00:29:09,500 --> 00:29:20,580

You're just aware that you're treated differently or aware that people want to sit down and have conversations with you at the table and other people can't join the meeting and then they just, they get an update and you're like, hold on, that AP is just as involved as me.

412

00:29:20,580 --> 00:29:21,460

They've met the contributor.

413

00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,860

I'm, I'm third hand information, you know, I can't the AP come to the meeting or that.

414

00:29:25,860 --> 00:29:29,460

There's moments like that where you're aware that some people are around the cold and you've suddenly got the seat.

415

00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:30,820

So I don't feel lonely.

416

00:29:31,020 --> 00:29:37,740

I sometimes feel a sense of, I dunno if it's shame or guilt, that suddenly I'm in the seat and I can still see people out in the cold.

417

00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:51,440

So I still, I do, I feel separate from that than theirs Where, you know, at the wrap party there's this real sense of every, they've had a different lived experience where everyone's like, you know, comparing war stories and you can't join that because you were treated differently.

418

00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:51,640

Right?

419

00:29:51,860 --> 00:29:52,080

So,

420

00:29:52,870 --> 00:29:56,570

Um, so is there almost a sense that you're, you're kind of put on a bit of a pedestal?

421

00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,130

Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say definitely.

422

00:29:59,130 --> 00:30:03,210

You know, there's like no one like laying out a red carpet and saying, can I get you your coffee <laugh>?

423

00:30:03,210 --> 00:30:07,450

But there's you, I just think you feel seen by the time you're the director.

424

00:30:07,490 --> 00:30:08,130

I think you feel seen.

425

00:30:08,130 --> 00:30:10,890

And I don't think as a woman in tv, I felt seen until I was the director.

426

00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:17,820

Um, and I think feeling seen is nice when finally you're seen, but then you also have to remember what it was like before you were seen.

427

00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,500

And I'm not gonna pretend like I'm the perfect boss in any way right now.

428

00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:25,980

I'm sure if someone was listen, there'd be like the edit system being like, ha she only came in and spoke to me three times.

429

00:30:26,300 --> 00:30:27,220

I didn't get very seen in her.

430

00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,340

So that's definitely like, practice what you preach, know what you need to do better.

431

00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:42,900

And I think, um, when you get really busy and when there's a lot on, it's very easy to only be in your bubble with like you and your editor and maybe you're exec and then I'm probably guilty of, yeah, in fact, you're not slight therapy.

432

00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:44,060

I'm probably guilty of that.

433

00:30:44,260 --> 00:30:51,740

I think as it gets tougher, I can end up in a smaller, a smaller bubble and then you ha you can't forget your whole wider team that are making this with you

434

00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:54,340

Coming

435

00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:54,580

Up.

436

00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:59,180

If you don't feel someone's gonna attach you to a film, get a film and attach yourself to it.

437

00:30:59,210 --> 00:31:04,660

Like, I came in packaged inside an idea and I made the idea so appealing that I'm like, sorry, I come with it <laugh>.

438

00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,060

So that was my emo that's how I did it.

439

00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:19,420

The Imposter Club podcast is to help you feel less alone, go and share it with someone you know who'd benefit.

440

00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:21,420

Now back to the chat.

441

00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:29,140

So, you know, you said you carry around other things in this backpack of mixed emotions Yeah.

442

00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,900

Of being a creative person in the TV industry.

443

00:31:32,530 --> 00:31:35,140

What, what other things do you beat yourself up about then?

444

00:31:35,500 --> 00:31:46,820

I think I beat myself up about being a rollover, like a pushover and absolutely, I was such a mug I think when I started and I, I now, I just wanna shake that 20 something year old, uh, year old and just be like, why?

445

00:31:46,850 --> 00:31:48,500

Like, you were just so wet.

446

00:31:48,580 --> 00:31:55,180

I was so worried about like, people not hiring you again or just wanting them to like me and being like, okay, yes, you can have my idea.

447

00:31:55,180 --> 00:31:57,260

No, are you and you want to make me the researcher on it?

448

00:31:57,260 --> 00:31:57,540

Okay.

449

00:31:57,540 --> 00:31:59,060

Oh, you, I'm only gonna be the ap.

450

00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,980

Oh, I, I shot and asked the questions.

451

00:32:01,980 --> 00:32:02,860

Okay, I'll be the producer.

452

00:32:03,250 --> 00:32:18,410

Like there was just accepting, kind of just being happy to be in the room almost and not realizing what, now looking back like what I was doing and the credits that I would've been giving out now for those roles or how it recognized I would've made some members of the team.

453

00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:24,650

Um, I dunno, I feel a bit like, I dunno what happened.

454

00:32:24,930 --> 00:32:26,530

I dunno how, I dunno how it happened actually.

455

00:32:26,530 --> 00:32:41,390

I just feel like maybe some, sometimes people take your kindness for weakness and I think you can get exploited if you, if you keep your head down, you do a good job and then you can watch other people, um, go off.

456

00:32:41,460 --> 00:32:48,750

Like, you know, I'd have ideas that get commissioned that were given to other directors because they'd had an extra film and then you could be their producer or you could be their ap.

457

00:32:48,750 --> 00:32:50,230

You're quite capable of making that film.

458

00:32:50,230 --> 00:32:51,310

And I don't think that would happen now.

459

00:32:51,310 --> 00:32:52,030

And that is what's good.

460

00:32:52,070 --> 00:33:00,150

I think that's changed, like as a, you know, there's much more focus on, you know, hiring female directors or, you know, diverse hires.

461

00:33:00,150 --> 00:33:11,350

And I think that that's so important because I used to have to fight for my place to film a birth film and I was like, hold on, I'm filming a, a documentary about a lady in her living room giving birth, and it's just her and her husband.

462

00:33:11,510 --> 00:33:13,670

I think they probably prefer a female day.

463

00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:15,150

Those things just weren't a given.

464

00:33:15,980 --> 00:33:21,030

Whereas if you are, you know, gonna be filming bare grills, you were gonna be, that was just a given that it was gonna be a male director.

465

00:33:21,060 --> 00:33:21,350

Okay.

466

00:33:21,490 --> 00:33:22,470

So I just think, so perhaps

467

00:33:22,470 --> 00:33:24,710

Some of the stereotypes that existed mm-hmm.

468

00:33:24,750 --> 00:33:30,710

<affirmative>, what, 15 years ago are, are you, you, you think are no longer existent or at least are much better?

469

00:33:31,710 --> 00:33:32,470

I think it's changing.

470

00:33:32,630 --> 00:33:35,430

I don't think it's there yet, but I think there is an onus.

471

00:33:35,750 --> 00:33:43,950

Everyone's aware whether they agree or not, or whether they think is a mistake or a, you know, there'll definitely be old school people that are doing the higher thinking, Ugh, this is a tick box.

472

00:33:43,970 --> 00:33:45,190

Oh, why have we hired this person?

473

00:33:45,190 --> 00:33:56,230

We're only doing it to because the channel one or because we're supposed to, but they, they have a preferred hire or they think there should be a guy director or they think there should be this person or you know, that they have an opinion separate to who's being hired.

474

00:33:56,690 --> 00:33:58,830

But all that needs to happen is the door needs to open.

475

00:33:58,830 --> 00:34:00,790

And then once you've got the opportunity, you can prove yourself.

476

00:34:00,790 --> 00:34:06,190

But if the door's firmly shut, then you can, you know, how do you ever get the opportunity to prove that you are capable?

477

00:34:06,340 --> 00:34:06,630

Yeah.

478

00:34:06,690 --> 00:34:14,739

So I don't think when people think about the don mess hiring in any form that people think like, oh, it's just a, it's just a token hire.

479

00:34:15,159 --> 00:34:16,380

It, it's not about that.

480

00:34:16,449 --> 00:34:22,300

It's about, like I said, it's about opening the door to an opportunity and then that person would lose their job quite quickly if they can't deliver.

481

00:34:22,330 --> 00:34:26,300

Like, you know, you're replaced, you're just basically saying, here's your moment and everyone needs that moment.

482

00:34:26,540 --> 00:34:29,179

Everyone needs the door to open it whichever way you can get that to happen.

483

00:34:29,889 --> 00:34:37,540

Like knock on the door, bash on the door, pick, lock the door, whatever you've gotta do, like get in that door and, and then it's up to you.

484

00:34:37,540 --> 00:34:40,380

Then you, then you're, you know, in charge of your own destiny, in charge of your own career.

485

00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:48,219

But it's, it's the higher the, the focus on the hire is important because it, it just suddenly means everyone's got the opportunity to prove themselves.

486

00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:49,219

Yes.

487

00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:57,330

Do you remember there being a kind of light bulb moment of you thinking, hold on, I am being a pushover here.

488

00:34:57,790 --> 00:35:03,730

I'm gonna have to get a bit feisty or a bit um, a bit more assertive to progress?

489

00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:21,690

Yeah, there's a bit that I can't really talk about the exact film because obviously it ruffles some feathers, but there's been films or one or two times where I've had a few things that I have developed, secured the access, come up with it's been pitched ready to go, then it is taken from you 'cause your staff and oh, we've got someone better you in this.

490

00:35:21,690 --> 00:35:25,210

And I could see again, it's like, it's, as I was saying there before, it's risk adverse.

491

00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:37,050

It's, it's, it's all those reasons, but at the same time you're like, if you're always gonna say, okay, oh, all right, yeah, yeah, that makes sense for the good, for the good of the company, for the good that you have to then say like, how often am I gonna say no?

492

00:35:37,090 --> 00:35:37,290

No.

493

00:35:37,290 --> 00:35:49,400

And how many other directors had I been around where I'd watch them argue about credits or argue about, uh, their role or what was expected or the hours they worked, I could see people standing up for themselves and it was like, yeah, you do that and I didn't do it for myself.

494

00:35:49,860 --> 00:36:05,940

And I think you do, you know what, at the same time, I think it was only because I got burnt a few times on other films where I'd watched, you know, films that I've now not made and I've developed and was ready to direct and I didn't, that I probably fought to make American murder.

495

00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:20,020

So eventually I felt, I felt that was a very like, cathartic experience to then make that it meant so much because it was a story I believed in and I could have easily when they said, or you know, other people that I could have been like, do you know what, yeah, I'll exec this, this is, this is great.

496

00:36:20,020 --> 00:36:21,140

I'll direct the next one.

497

00:36:21,140 --> 00:36:23,420

Like, I'm sure this, you know, this isn't right for me.

498

00:36:23,420 --> 00:36:36,040

And that makes total sense that actually I had the fighting spirit from learned experience that at the time it just feels like a real, you know, carrying that emotional burden of being like, God, I've, I've hindered my own career by not being standing up for myself enough.

499

00:36:36,500 --> 00:36:41,960

But then later you realize it's put you in exactly the right position in the right fighting mode to fight for what really counts.

500

00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:50,630

And I think had I got the others, maybe I, well had I got the others, maybe they wouldn't be asking you if I could have directed with, they like, yeah, of course you're gonna direct maybe, um, <laugh>,

501

00:36:51,410 --> 00:36:52,150

But I get it.

502

00:36:52,220 --> 00:37:03,830

It's like, you are, yeah, you, you may have only got that the, the per, you know, the perfect role for you that did what it did for your career and your own personal, you know, development because you'd been burnt before.

503

00:37:04,150 --> 00:37:09,270

I mean, have you got, do you have advice for people who are feeling like you did back then now?

504

00:37:09,660 --> 00:37:11,270

Yeah, I say just look for opportunity.

505

00:37:11,270 --> 00:37:16,430

There's opportunities every in lots of places that obviously I know difficult time in, in the industry right now.

506

00:37:17,130 --> 00:37:20,160

Um, but there are lots of initiatives around, there's lot.

507

00:37:20,190 --> 00:37:26,240

When I, I was just on one at the minute, uh, recently there was a Netflix documentary fund, um, for shorts.

508

00:37:26,300 --> 00:37:28,800

So I, I did like the first cut strand.

509

00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,160

I did the Fresh Strand for B, B C, like for first time directors.

510

00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:36,640

Like I joined as many and entered as many of those initiatives to get the, and those are great.

511

00:37:37,430 --> 00:37:49,680

It's looking for the training schemes, it's looking for like going, you know, sometimes Sony will do a free, like camera training session or you know, subsidized or there's one to watch schemes or there's going to Sheffield or Edinburgh.

512

00:37:49,750 --> 00:37:53,440

Like there's things that you can get on and mingle and mix and that's networking.

513

00:37:53,830 --> 00:37:59,280

It's going, yeah, I think just being hungry for it and going on those schemes is, is, uh, is worthwhile.

514

00:37:59,340 --> 00:38:07,880

But I think if you, if you, for me, the advice would be if you don't feel someone's gonna attach you to a film, get a film and attach yourself to it and then come as a package.

515

00:38:08,580 --> 00:38:11,400

And I think that was my, that was like my Trojan horse.

516

00:38:11,470 --> 00:38:16,920

Like I came in packaged inside an idea and I made the idea so appealing that I'm like, sorry, I come with it <laugh>.

517

00:38:16,980 --> 00:38:20,240

So I felt that was my, that was my emo that's how I did it.

518

00:38:20,330 --> 00:38:21,080

Force their hand

519

00:38:21,700 --> 00:38:24,360

By dangling the most amazing access and idea.

520

00:38:24,580 --> 00:38:26,440

And it's only to be made with you.

521

00:38:26,820 --> 00:38:27,720

You just have to, yeah.

522

00:38:27,720 --> 00:38:37,520

So I think there's, like Jamie for example, Jamie Drag queen, he came to the, he emailed the company and they did say, I'll go offer you a taste to tape with him.

523

00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,040

Like I didn't force my way into that story.

524

00:38:40,140 --> 00:38:48,450

But I would also say that his story wasn't resonating, I would say massively with anyone in the industry at that time.

525

00:38:48,530 --> 00:38:57,250

I know he'd emailed lots of, in lots of, um, indies and I wanted even reply to him and it was always gonna be like a BBC three type documentary.

526

00:38:57,910 --> 00:39:04,440

But I think for that one it was about, um, being like, if I'm gonna tell this story, I'm gonna know everything about it.

527

00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:06,160

And I, I did not stop thinking about that film.

528

00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:09,320

Like I was that I made that in like three parts, like off and on.

529

00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:11,680

'cause I was making, um, gypsy weddings at the same time.

530

00:39:11,740 --> 00:39:21,750

So I'd go off and film a bit of gypsy weddings, wait for small weddings to come by, and then we'd go off and do another stint on Jamie because it happened over like a six month period, a five month period before the edit.

531

00:39:22,170 --> 00:39:27,510

And I think just constantly, I kept talking to um, Laura Ellings, she was the researcher on that.

532

00:39:27,550 --> 00:39:32,590

I just can't see, like, discussing his story and his themes and the more we fleshed out could have been such a surface level story.

533

00:39:32,650 --> 00:39:33,190

So thin.

534

00:39:33,790 --> 00:39:38,870

I think if you really care about a project or a story, just like, I think you have to live and breathe it.

535

00:39:39,070 --> 00:39:47,870

I think not like, I don't, I'm not saying like lose your work-life balance, I'm just saying like enjoy that subject, enjoy talking about it, be hungry to know more about it.

536

00:39:47,970 --> 00:39:49,630

And that will come through in the film.

537

00:39:49,810 --> 00:40:00,510

The more and more I experience, you know, both the hiring side and you know, working within the creative industry, the more I think it is like 90% to do with attitude of the right person.

538

00:40:00,700 --> 00:40:11,710

Because I would always rather hire someone who's got ingredients on their CV to the right thing or you know, obviously a certain level of skill set to perform the job that you're considering them for.

539

00:40:12,290 --> 00:40:22,070

But if they don't have the right personality, grit, determination, hunger, you won't get the film that you want.

540

00:40:22,090 --> 00:40:23,670

You won't get the results that you want.

541

00:40:23,670 --> 00:40:29,790

And it comes across like you say, and actually I think there's no excuse these days for God, I sound like a pretty old person when you say these days, these

542

00:40:29,790 --> 00:40:31,630

Days, these kids these days, <laugh> these days.

543

00:40:31,650 --> 00:40:32,190

Oh my God.

544

00:40:32,450 --> 00:40:45,270

But there really isn't any excuse for not doing your research and actually not hustling to an extent because you can shoot stuff on your phone, you can mess, you can contact pretty much anyone now via social media.

545

00:40:46,050 --> 00:40:53,070

Um, just you can find them so much easier than when you and I were probably embarrassingly still flicking through like a phone before Yellow Pages.

546

00:40:53,070 --> 00:40:53,950

It's called pub used to call the pubs.

547

00:40:54,050 --> 00:40:55,110

Do you have me too?

548

00:40:55,270 --> 00:40:57,150

A clientele that comes in who has a jog?

549

00:40:57,250 --> 00:40:59,030

Uh, we're looking for people do <laugh>.

550

00:40:59,090 --> 00:40:59,870

God, how,

551

00:41:00,230 --> 00:41:00,630

Honestly, that's what I did.

552

00:41:00,630 --> 00:41:07,150

Yeah, I was, um, I was an AP on wife swap and I used to um, ring pubs or um, hairdresser

553

00:41:07,240 --> 00:41:07,590

Shops,

554

00:41:07,590 --> 00:41:08,110

Hairdressers.

555

00:41:08,110 --> 00:41:08,790

They were pretty good.

556

00:41:08,790 --> 00:41:09,870

Hairdressers are great.

557

00:41:09,930 --> 00:41:11,230

Oh, I know someone who'd be

558

00:41:11,230 --> 00:41:12,630

Great always tells me their life

559

00:41:12,630 --> 00:41:12,790

Story.

560

00:41:12,790 --> 00:41:13,190

Yeah, Ruth

561

00:41:13,250 --> 00:41:13,510

Do that.

562

00:41:13,510 --> 00:41:14,350

She's in on Tuesday days

563

00:41:15,070 --> 00:41:20,070

<laugh>.

564

00:41:15,260 --> 00:41:15,750

Exactly.

565

00:41:15,860 --> 00:41:16,350

Perfect.

566

00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:16,950

Loved it.

567

00:41:16,970 --> 00:41:24,710

But like, like you, you were doing, you were hustling and finding access and developing stuff along the side, trying to also juggle life.

568

00:41:24,790 --> 00:41:33,840

I know, but there is a lot of opportunity there now and I know it is really hard to, to do that, um, alongside a job or even when you're not working and you don't have any money at all.

569

00:41:34,420 --> 00:41:37,240

But there are ways means to make yourself visible, I think.

570

00:41:37,540 --> 00:41:38,320

Um, yeah,

571

00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:42,000

I think that the hunger for it, I'm not saying like everyone needs to become a workaholic.

572

00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:46,680

And I would say I definitely know I have got absolutely appalling work-life balance.

573

00:41:46,910 --> 00:41:52,800

It's the number, like it's the number one thing I need to totally work on and I don't know how to work on that.

574

00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,320

And I'm gonna need to, I dunno, figure that out over the next year.

575

00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:56,120

'cause it's not sustainable.

576

00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:56,520

Call a

577

00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:57,040

Real therapist.

578

00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:57,240

Yeah.

579

00:41:57,300 --> 00:41:57,640

Not me,

580

00:41:57,820 --> 00:41:58,040

Dr.

581

00:41:58,320 --> 00:41:58,480

Kimberly.

582

00:41:58,560 --> 00:41:59,360

I need to sort this out.

583

00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:03,560

<laugh>, I just, I I need to work on it because you can't live it.

584

00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:08,800

You can't work in that gear all the time and you can't, and like I was saying, it's the other voices that come in.

585

00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:16,520

Is it imposter syndrome or is it actually more like now you found your seat at the table, now you've raised your own bar, now you're like, oh shit, the expectations have got higher.

586

00:42:16,980 --> 00:42:22,840

The quality of my work has to be up there and I, I now have to keep, I have to keep rising to the challenge and like Right.

587

00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:24,240

Proving myself on a different level, proving

588

00:42:24,240 --> 00:42:24,560

Myself.

589

00:42:24,910 --> 00:42:25,200

Yeah.

590

00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:35,210

And I, I feel like that can result in like insane hours and, um, yeah, just hard grafted again, and I, it's not like I'm saying like, Hey, I'd like to coast for a while.

591

00:42:35,270 --> 00:42:38,010

I'm just saying like, I just need to No, look at that.

592

00:42:38,010 --> 00:42:39,690

It's just the lady lady going off on holiday tomorrow.

593

00:42:39,810 --> 00:42:40,730

I mean, let's not feel sorry for you.

594

00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:41,610

Yeah, fair enough.

595

00:42:42,150 --> 00:42:46,730

But no, even the fact that you've had to sort of justify, not that I'm saying I want to coast, right?

596

00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:47,250

Yeah.

597

00:42:47,340 --> 00:42:48,250

Isn't that interesting?

598

00:42:48,250 --> 00:42:48,490

Yeah.

599

00:42:48,710 --> 00:42:58,250

All you are saying is you need to be able to have some life outside of work and know and be able to reign it in and back appropriately, flexibly for the right thing at the right moment.

600

00:42:58,250 --> 00:43:00,730

Yeah, but you've gone, I don't, it just doesn't mean that I can't Yeah.

601

00:43:00,730 --> 00:43:01,450

Work really hard.

602

00:43:01,750 --> 00:43:02,850

It, it's in it's inherent.

603

00:43:02,930 --> 00:43:06,570

I think it's still burnt into that you're only as good as your last credit thing, right?

604

00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:07,130

There's

605

00:43:07,130 --> 00:43:14,770

Something about, I think it's early, like, oh, constantly trying to prove yourself and be heard and be seen that then when you are, you can't stop that fight.

606

00:43:15,230 --> 00:43:20,730

And again, it's not about coasting, it's now about saying right now I've, uh, now I can just exist in this space.

607

00:43:21,030 --> 00:43:23,330

You still, you can't take off those boxing gloves.

608

00:43:23,330 --> 00:43:28,610

You can't stop that fight and need to be seen, heard and prove yourself and that stays with you.

609

00:43:28,610 --> 00:43:34,010

And that that desire to keep fighting and keep showing and proving your worth.

610

00:43:34,830 --> 00:43:44,530

Um, I think 'cause it starts so early at the beginning of your career, when do you take that off and just say, okay, now I'm, now I'm just, I'm in the pit with everybody else and I'm the same as everyone else.

611

00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:56,210

Like you don't, I think you keep that attitude and it's really hard to step away from it because I think it's counterproductive and it leads to like being a workaholic and it leads to like mental health issues and that inner voice, which is sometimes coined as imposter syndrome.

612

00:43:56,210 --> 00:43:57,450

And it's not just the imposter syndrome.

613

00:43:57,450 --> 00:43:59,890

It, that's just one of many voices that Yeah.

614

00:43:59,990 --> 00:44:03,250

Are actually instead just baggage from past experience way.

615

00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:11,290

It's more about self-esteem and taking it, any kind of feedback is criticism because you are your own critic, you're us critic.

616

00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:14,820

But I think it's, yeah, it's exhaustion.

617

00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:17,420

It is exhausting having to think like that all the time.

618

00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:24,700

And you need to stop that because look at what you've done in your career and you're doing other brilliant stuff I know that, you know, you can't tell me about.

619

00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:51,400

But, um, I'm, I'm really thankful for you being so open about about this because I do think it's very easy for, for people who are still making it in their career or trying to carve their way up to assume that getting to the point of directing a huge streamer doc is easy, or at least maybe it wasn't easy doing it, but you got there in a way that was, I dunno, somehow otherwise easier than what people are experiencing now.

620

00:44:51,540 --> 00:45:00,520

So I'm so grateful for you being really honest about the juggle and the burnout and the imposter syndrome, plus rucksack of other emotions.

621

00:45:01,020 --> 00:45:01,600

So thank you.

622

00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,200

Yeah, very much Jenny for being part of the imposter club.

623

00:45:04,220 --> 00:45:09,160

You have a, you have a big warm hug from us all because none of us really know what we're doing, do we <laugh>?

624

00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:13,080

I mean, do we <laugh> thank you for having me.

625

00:45:13,100 --> 00:45:14,200

It felt like a therapy session.

626

00:45:14,230 --> 00:45:14,880

I've enjoyed it.

627

00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:15,200

Thanks.

628

00:45:17,540 --> 00:45:21,440

That's it for this episode of The Imposter Club, brought to you by talented people.

629

00:45:22,020 --> 00:45:28,800

I'm Kimberly Godbolt and it has been lovely to hang out with you while you commute slash gym slash dog walk or whatever you're doing.

630

00:45:29,540 --> 00:45:36,200

If this has struck a chord, please go ahead and share it with your friends in that closed WhatsApp group, I'm not in or on your social networks.

631

00:45:36,540 --> 00:45:43,560

Our aim is to reach as many fellow imposters as we can to share love and learnings and create a sense of belonging.

632

00:45:44,220 --> 00:45:48,720

And if you haven't already, follow or subscribe to the Pod so you don't miss an episode drop.

633

00:45:51,410 --> 00:45:52,880

Thank you to talented people.

634

00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:58,920

Produced and hosted by me, Kimberly Godbolt, exec producer Rosie Turner, editor Ben Mullins.

635

00:45:59,340 --> 00:45:59,800

See you later.

My fight for a seat at the table: Netflix 'American Murder' Director Jenny Popplewell on her journey to feature doc success

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